So the algorithm counts the distance in territories that can be traveled by the unit, as this is best measurable, not some other distance.

the Alphabetical rule is supposed to come after Fleets before Armies, isn't it?

Tampa was no longer woned so it is distance from Miami. Neuvo Leon can be there in three moves where as Arkansas takes four.

no, there's no Fleets before Armies rule considering disbandment to my knowledge. A functional 'Fleets before Armies' rule might be implemented due to a difference in counting the territories for Armies and for Fleets. (Armies can be convoyed, so they are not barred by waterways; Fleets can't move across land borders, so a trajectory along a coastline or on rivers is counted.)

@Draugnar, to my knowledge possession (or in this case loss) of a home SC does not affect the amount and status of SCs as home SCs.

hmmmm i'm hearing three long-term players professing that there is no definitive place to look up the logic? whether or not a home DC which has been lost is counted (distance-wise) sounds pretty important to me :)

woe is me, to be so befuddled..... thanks, boys, for your best shots...

@Carpenter - Read the official rules for disbandment when someone leaves the game and you will see the Fleets before Armies under Civil Disorder on Pg 18. The one unclear thing is it says "units farthest form the country" but doesn't clarify what "the country" is. Is it any SC owned by the country? Does it include former SCs that were part of the country and now belong to someone else? Thius is unclerar but could reasonably be assumed to mean currently possessed home SCs.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wizards.com%2Favalonhill%2Frules%2Fdiplomacy.pdf&ei=MFVGUo2VDfW-4APrjIDgBw&usg=AFQjCNFiIotMylxz0zQt8_NJKvCxE5D_Fg&bvm=bv.53217764,d.dmg

Check Pg 18 under Civil Disorder. The Fleets before Armies rule is mentioned there, so you are wrong, Carpenter.

HEre is another copy of the 4th Edition rules from 2000.

http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/rulebooks/2000AH4th.pdf

Pg. 18. Look it up.

But on which page?

Oh, fyi, I do not think the fleets before armies rule is used on webdip.

Also this is the only 'random' event in the game. Everything else is very deterministic...

There is nothing random about it. There are no two territories with the exact same name, so distance, fleet then army, and finally alphabetical removes the random factor if you know the rules.

@Draugnar, then I'm wrong at that point. Let me ask the following question, what will then happen in the unlikely scenario in which a country in CD has lost all of its original home SCs, but still controlled some distant SC?
Your version of the rule doesn't give a deterministic rule for disbandment and explains this specific scenario, ALL distances to owned home SCs (as you claim the rule is), are the same: infinity (or some other large number, resulting in crashing the game).

And, apparently this site follows the DATC recommendations regarding CD disbandments. Help -> FAQ -> Game rules -> "If someone has to destroy a unit, but doesn't enter destroy orders, what unit is destroyed?"
I think these recommendations supersede the official rules on this issue in games on this site and precisely defines a measure how distance is measured. (And that the 'Fleet before Army' rule is not applied on this site.)

"ALL distances to owned home SCs (as you claim the rule is), "

Actually, I claimed the rule was unclear on this issue. Try disparaging someone else. The rule says country. It doesn't even specify that it has to be an SC. So the *rule* is unclear on that and I pointed that out. I was only *guessing* that the fleet, being closer to an owned SC, was kept for that reason. My bigegst point was that you clearly didn't know the published rules of the game when you stated unequivocally that there was no rule about Fleet versus Army. So turn it around if yu thinbk you can. You. Wer. Wrong. Period.

And speaking of the DATC...

6.J.7. TEST CASE, CIVIL DISORDER TWO FLEETS AND ARMY WITH EQUAL DISTANCE
In removal, the fleet has precedence over an army. In this case there are two fleets, to make the test more complex.


Russia has to remove one.
Russia has an army in Bohemia, a fleet in Skagerrak and a fleet in the North Sea.
Russia does not order a disband.

The distances of the army and the fleets to one of the home supply centers are two. The fleets take precedence above the army (although the army is alphabetical first). The fleet in the North Sea is alphabetical first, compared to Skagerrak and has to be removed.

(http://web.inter.nl.net/users/L.B.Kruijswijk/#6.J)

So the DATC agrees that it is fleets before armies. Pwnd, mother fucker! :-)

I tried to point out the perceived glitch in how the rule is applied (indeed, ambiguously), following the reasoning laid down.
Maybe I should've made clear that I was referring to a game on this site. I've no beef with you, I find it highly remarkable you use this ad hominem argument and care about what I do or do not know instead of how the rules are applied here.

"It's done as the DATC recommends: It's the furthest from your home supply centers. Distance is defined as the smallest number of moves to get from the unit's position to a home supply center. When calculating the smallest number of moves armies can move across seas, but fleets can only move across seas and coasts. If there are two units both the same distance from a home supply center the territory which is first alphabetically is removed first." So, I AM right on this one, on this site.

I used the smiley to show I was just poking fun on the AH. Sorry if you didn't catch that.

As far as right on this site, you said they did it per the DATC. They do not as I showed above. The rules state fleets before amries and the DATC states fleets before amries. If Kestas didn't code that, then the code is not in compliance with the DATC, as Kestas claims it is.

You asserted "And, apparently this site follows the DATC recommendations regarding CD disbandments." If it doesn't follow fleet before army, then iot doesn't follow the DATC. Do you now agree?

Very productive conversation, I think it has been lost deep in the community memory, so it's good to have a nice reminder.

carpenter: "what will then happen in the unlikely scenario in which a country in CD has lost all of its original home SCs, but still controlled some distant SC?"

Funny you shuold mention that:
[url=http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=124923#gamePanel]gameID=124923[/url]
Autumn 1905 - a CD Russia's only remaining center is Rumania. There is an army there, and a fleet in the Barents. The army was disbanded.

Made no damn sense to me.

Hm. My last post may make no damn sense either. Ignore the typo and apparently unnecessary html gobbledygook.

The real explanation is that the code behind autodisbands only likes at the type of territory, not the type of unit. Neuvo Leon and Arkansas are both land territories. According to the rules and the DATC, Neuvo Leon, being a fleet, should have disbanded. But because the game engine only looks at the territory type, it saw both as land and disbanded the first alphabetically. This is, arguably, a bug.

onlu *looks* at...

forget it. too many typos to fix. spent the last two hours "studying" (i.e. taking notes in OneNote with definitions and page numbers as it is an open book and notes test) for my mid term and still have another hour to go so getting brain fried.

@Draugnar, I thought the name-calling gave away your stance in the discussion. Either way, I think it's better to agree that there's a disagreement in the DATC rules and how these rules are implemented on this site. Maybe you should start a new thread pointing this out to kestas.
@HR, well, that is an interesting case.

Well I apologize for my little quip then. The only real rule ambiguity is what defines a country. The DATC makes that clear - home SCs owned or not. But the site clearly still has it wrong at least on that map.

Hmm, thanks for pointing this out. I admit I dont understand what the issue is exactly but I know something similar came up in the past and I thought we had resolved it.

Perhaps I didn't refresh the unit distance lookups for the variants, only for classic. I'll take a look asap.

Remember it is unit type, not territory type, that determines the order of removal.

I had thought webdip didn't bother disbanding fleets first and then armies... (for equal distance) that seems kind of arbitrary anyway - but i guess some nations can't take back their home centers with fleets so keeping the army makes some sense - in theory should keep them in a better position most of the time...