Either gunboat or non-gunboat. I've seen it in a press game. Early as in within the first two or three moves.

That would be against the rules in gunboat.

^

Why would that work anyway?

Apparently people do it on the world map as well, but I never play that variant. It seems retarded to me.

In a press game it's unnecessary, in a gunboat game it's against the rules.

I've never played the Modern map, but I've encountered it on the Classic.

It would be great if "draw" votes could not be retracted in gunboats.

Or, if the draw votes were anonymous in gunboat.

That is actually a really good idea.

There was a proposal that the voting buttons should be anonymous - "There are x draw votes, y pause votes, z cancel votes" sort of thing.

I don't think pause or cancel votes should be anonymous. And if draw votes were anonymous it would likely defeat the purpose if it was identified how many had been registered.

@Lando: Eh?

How does knowing *who* has clicked a button affect your decision whether to cancel, draw or pause the game? You're either willing to Pause/Cancel/Draw given the current positions on the board or you're not.

"You're either willing to Pause/Cancel/Draw given the current positions on the board or you're not."

No, you're willing to vote draw based on this. Sportsmanlike players are willing to grant pauses as requested. Cancels should not be based on anything other than if a game has been compromised.

To speak on draws, I think that knowing who has voted draw, knowing how many people have voted draw is information that players use but shouldn't use in determining their own moves. I think the only way to remove this real issue is to make voting completely anonymous and hidden.

my view on draws is a tad different...
And I'd like to say that this Modern dip variant is skewed, I'm certain that stats would show that...

The only information available in a gunboat game should be the moves on the board.

Maybe I don't see the issue clearly, so enlighten me...?

It seems devious, but isn't finding sneaky ways to form and break alliances very much "in the spirit" of the game, so long as it's not blatantly cheating, ie, everyone's favorite "She's a witch cuz she's made of wood!"-style complaint, multis?

Lando, what about showing only whether the number of draw votes (besides your own) is greater than zero? "At least one other player has voted to draw" and "No other players have voted to draw."

The problem is it's not sneaky. It's right out in the open for everyone to see. Gunboat is all about showing intent through moves. Using the draw button to communicate the desire to ally with another player means that two players going at each other's throats can become allies without using a phase. Obviously, the person that they intend to move against as allies sees this too, but one phase can be the difference between a solo and a draw.

nice suggestion, show only totals of votes, interesting...

But why? My opinion is that if you have shifted goals and are playing for a draw, it should not matter what others have voted. It is up to your moves on the board to convince your coalition to play for and vote for the draw.

Showing total votes is information.

@Lando - I believe that the information will still be abused even if it is anonymous. Say we are down to the final 4. G/R/A/I. I am Germany. Italy is pulling away from the pack. I look down and see that two votes have been cast for a draw. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know who cast those votes.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

@Lando - No problem. But...what is the solution? If anonymous voting can be abused, what then? Make the voting absolutely hidden? Nothing is shown to any player until the actual Draw/Cancel happens? You just vote and hope?

My suggestion in this thread was hidden draw votes. Cancels are different. You will find more details around these opinions above, in this thread.

@Obi - The mods have made it clear that using the buttons to indicate something for which they aren't intended is metagaming and against the rules. I think they even added that to the rules page.

My bad. I saw where you talked about anonymous draw votes but you threw in the hidden one at the end of one post. And it was never mentioned again. That is probably the best option.

Rules are fine draugnar but if they are unenforceable they dont serve their intended purpose.

I was explaining it to Obi who indicated he saw no problem with using the votes to indicate something different.

They should be anonymous in press games as well imho.

It's not like it matters in press. After all, the person could just announce "I pressed Cancel!"