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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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AverageWhiteBoy (314 D)
14 Jul 12 UTC
Youtube Music Thread
No words. Just links and likes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swW0f_9z_R0
26 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
13 Jul 12 UTC
US sex ed, public policy vs ignorant religiosity?
(see inside)
93 replies
Open
pjmansfield99 (100 D)
14 Jul 12 UTC
Any Mods online?
I know its a weird time but just wondered if anyone was around?
5 replies
Open
damian (675 D)
14 Jul 12 UTC
So has Draugnar finally matured and can I take him off my mute list?
Draug need not answer. I won't see it. But does anyone else what to chime in with their opinion so I can decide if it is safe to take him off? I kind of miss his ferociously bombastic posts, but he got so over the top in his youthful desire to act tough I had to mute him or kill him before his (mental) 21st birthday, and the former was the better option
6 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
13 Jul 12 UTC
First cut is the deepest
Circumcision - religious right that needs defending or child abuse? Germany court has ruled it illegal.
84 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
13 Jul 12 UTC
Compliment thread
In this thread you must compliment the poster above you. We've done this before and it was pretty funny and also not the usual catastrophe.
92 replies
Open
basvanopheusden (2176 D)
13 Jul 12 UTC
Anyone from the Princeton area?
I am moving to Princeton for a research project at the university. Does anyone here live in Princeton, or in New Jersey in general?
1 reply
Open
Tru Ninja (1016 D(S))
10 Jul 12 UTC
Hey everyone! My wife is on Webdip!!
I won't give away her screen name and you won't find her in any of my games, but she's in a couple of games right now and having a blast! How cool is that?
62 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
12 Jul 12 UTC
"Now Where Have I Heard That Before..." (A Game Played Entirely On Quotes?)
Every message you send has to be a quote from a movie, TV show, book, song, etc., with the exception of locations (as finding a quote for moving to the Ruhr is a bit too difficult, I think)...an example, say, Italy asking Russia for help could be:
"With our combined strength (@Budalest) we can END this destructive conflict, and bring order to the galaxy, er, Europe!" :p
8 replies
Open
Sbyvl36 (439 D)
13 Jul 12 UTC
I'm building a website, come join it.
Hey guys, I've started a new website, and will be getting a domain name this weekend. Check it out. Right now the address is

http://sbyvl.webs.com/
30 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
14 Jul 12 UTC
Jellybean and Google NOW
Anyone have 4.1 yet?

I've been playing around with Google NOW a bit and it looks like it might actually be quite useful.
0 replies
Open
TheGhostmaker (1545 D)
09 Jul 12 UTC
Returning to webdip
After a year away, I've decided to come back to webdip for the duration of my summer holiday (as opposed to just making the occasional post on the forums every 3 months). Not playing any games until I've got past my week away that starts in a fortnight. How's webdip getting on?
26 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
13 Jul 12 UTC
Rangers FC (Scottish football)
So, today Scottish Football League clubs have voted that the "new" Rangers FC, arising out of the old, bankrupt and liquidated, Rangers, will enter the league structure in Division 3 (the fourth tier of league football in Scotland).
7 replies
Open
MichiganMan (5126 D)
13 Jul 12 UTC
Friday Night CHICKEN SHIT!
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=94539

25 replies
Open
cspieker (18223 D)
13 Jul 12 UTC
EOG - Friday Knife Fight
gameID=94528

Two words: Boh Ring!!!
4 replies
Open
MichiganMan (5126 D)
13 Jul 12 UTC
WTA-GB-144
Who was France in the cancelled WTA-GB-144, and why wouldn't you cancel?
0 replies
Open
dubmdell (556 D)
13 Jul 12 UTC
Christian Edifi tablet based on gay-rights-supporting Android
http://unicornbooty.com/blog/2012/07/13/ruh-roh-the-official-christian-tablet-is-a-homo-loving-gay-marriage-endorsing-android/
0 replies
Open
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
12 Jul 12 UTC
Shiny Medal Challenge
Dear fellow Shiny Medal players,

I challenge you to a WTA full press game. Only players who have donated and hence have a Shiny Medal can join. Please post your preferred bet size and phase length, though please nothing much more than 100 D.
7 replies
Open
Fortress Door (1837 D)
13 Jul 12 UTC
qwickie gunbowt
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=94467
13 replies
Open
mscott (384 D(G))
12 Jul 12 UTC
Throwing a Game
When is it acceptable to throw a WTA game( or any game for that matter, but WTA has the stiffest "penalty") knowing that you could force a draw? Are there ever grounds to believe that this is ever acceptable? I don't believe so, but looking to be proven wrong. I am of the school that would say Win; failing that, draw. Period. Curious to know what others think.
40 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
09 Jul 12 UTC
Talk about generations
Generation gaps and cultural differences. Your thoughts?
98 replies
Open
Alderian (2425 D(S))
07 Jul 12 UTC
July Ghost Ratings
http://tournaments.webdiplomacy.net/theghost-ratingslist
http://tournaments.webdiplomacy.net/theghost-ratingslist/ghost-ratings-by-category
31 replies
Open
King Atom (100 D)
11 Jul 12 UTC
I'm Still Angry About... (Weekly Thread)
Once a week, I'm gonna complain about stuff here. You can either agree with me or yell at me for being stupid, but don't try and piss me off, 'cause I just ain't been in the mood lately.
54 replies
Open
Zmaj (215 D(B))
11 Jul 12 UTC
Should cheating accusations be allowed?
Because it's an open issue.
77 replies
Open
2ndWhiteLine (2601 D(B))
12 Jul 12 UTC
Shopping and handbags
See below.

19 replies
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
12 Jul 12 UTC
Sacred Aliens EOG
gameID=89589

What the fuck was France thinking by giving Italy the game on the final move?
7 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
13 Jul 12 UTC
Remember that debate we were having on amending the US Constitution?
This is timely:

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/07/08/another-stab-at-the-us-constitution
0 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
12 Jul 12 UTC
Should I be worried
See inside
9 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
12 Jul 12 UTC
I go away for ten days and this happens...
... (see inside)
4 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
29 Jun 12 UTC
Existential risks
http://www.existential-risk.org/concept.html
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Draugnar (0 DX)
30 Jun 12 UTC
"This is like saying how does a teenager taking their own life qualify as premature."

That is the most false analogy I have read. A teenager taking their own life is not the same as mankind destroying itself. One is an act of intent (suicide) while I doubt mankind intends to destroy itself.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
30 Jun 12 UTC
i prefer anthropocentric because that term is already coined, but whatever you like lol.

i wasn't necessarily talking about suicide either draug i just meant a premature death.

Also who can say what the whole of mankind intends? Surely not any one man.
semck83 (229 D(B))
30 Jun 12 UTC
Actually, I can.

But I can't reveal it to anybody. Sorry.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
30 Jun 12 UTC
Oh you were responding to orathaic.

Well, Draugnar, let me re-post my response to you so you'll see it.

"@draugnar - I'm pretty sure that when someone dies at the age of less than 40 or so, and especially if they're a minor, then we call it a premature death. Yes, it was their time, and if you're a determinist, there was nothing that could have been done differently, it was destiny.

That shouldn't stop us from believing it should have been different though. Jesus."
Thucydides (864 D(B))
30 Jun 12 UTC
lol. here comes semck with tried-and-true, by-the-book con-man tactics. :P
semck83 (229 D(B))
30 Jun 12 UTC
I don't even have the first idea what you're talking about, Thucy. And I'm kind of hurt -- you've made it clear in this thread that you care about humanity's future and goals, and I do too, so I would have expected better friendship and trust. Especially in this sad time when, as I've come to realize (and you would too if you knew what I knew), humanity's goals are probably not going to be achieved.

And all for want of funds. *sigh* If only I had access to just $20,000 to make it all work out.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
30 Jun 12 UTC
oh in that case, pm me with your routing no.
semck83 (229 D(B))
30 Jun 12 UTC
lol. Done.

In seriousness -- isn't Draug kind of right, even by your own argument, Thucy? We say that somebody who dies at 40 died prematurely because we know humans usually live to 70-80. But we don't know what age intelligent species usually live to, a priori, right?
Draugnar (0 DX)
30 Jun 12 UTC
@Thucy
"This is like saying how does a teenager taking their own life qualify as premature."

Yes, that was a quote of ora's and he clearly *was* talking about suicide. But, as has been pointed out, we have no basis for what is considered an intelligent society's lifespan. Perhaps a few thousand years is the lifespan and we are at the end of it. So it is hubris to say our demise tomorrow would be premature. We don't know what premature is in intelligent civilization.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
30 Jun 12 UTC
The point is that we should want it to go on as long as possible and not become extinct in some kind of catastrophic event.

If by premature you mean "earlier than normal" then yes we don't know.

If by premature you mean "earlier than we would like" then I think I know exactly what a premature extinction would be - extinction that occurs before life is no longer physically possible, i.e., heat death of the universe.

We should try to exist as long as we can.
Zmaj (215 D(B))
30 Jun 12 UTC
Thucydides, your philosophy is remarkably close to mine. "If you value the rock, it is because valuing the rock makes you feel good about yourself." Absolutely true. There is an important difference, however.

"Even if you hate happiness, and thus seek to become unhappy, you only do so to satisfy your own desires, a form of happiness." Unhappiness makes you happy? It doesn't make sense. The reason? You simply picked the wrong notion to stand in the center of the universe, but you aren't far off.

The central point is vanity. Not happiness. Then the whole system works perfectly. People can be unhappy on purpose if it satisfies their vanity.

Let me describe vanity as I perceive it. Vanity makes us feel good about ourselves. It's the force that stands behind our every action (except fear). But there is a safety valve preventing vanity from sliding into self-absorbed madness: for vanity to work, we need to feel that others admire us. So we need other people.

I'm absolutely certain that we're hard-wired to be vain. I have no idea why. Vanity doesn't help evolution. Thucydides, you wondered aloud how people could not care about future generations even when they have kids. It's the convoluted world of vanity. It doesn't give a damn about evolution. So was it a mistake in the grand evolutionary plan? Or something else entirely?

Phew, my longest post on this forum...
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
30 Jun 12 UTC
Be the change you want to see in the World ...... and treat people how you would like to be treated yourself. PM me for more random meaningless comments.
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
30 Jun 12 UTC
If you think you can or you can't, you're probably right
Thucydides (864 D(B))
30 Jun 12 UTC
Vanity is just the selfish pursuit of happiness. All actions, remember, are part of the pursuit of happiness, even if they are poor choices, that's why they were made.

Also, yes, we are hard-wired to be vain. Our instincts guide us (this is all proven, but I can't sleep and I'm in no mood to find the book I read all this in) in most cases towards things that garner prestige for us. When faced with two options, the one which is on face a happier thing, and a harder thing which confers prestige, people almost always go for prestige but afterward when asked say that it was not a good choice.

Think of people who slave away at jobs chasing promotions, and in the end, what do they care? Most of these people realize they are a gerbil in a wheel after a while, but it doesn't mean they aren't pursuing happiness. They're just victims of their instincts.

It is however, not an evolutionary mistake. The reason we crave respect and prestige so much is that it is very very evolutionarily advantageous. Among social creatures like humans, prestige and respect are valuable things. Those who have it have more healthy children. Those who do not have prestige are often outcasts and do not do well. This is related to the evolution of mutual reciprocity, which eventually became the framework for almost all of our hardwired morality. It is the feeling that a free-rider has some bullshit coming his way. It is also the feeling that you owe something to someone who helped you.

Anyway, that's a tangent. But it is very interesting to me how our Darwinian-honed instincts so often drive us away from what will make us truly happy. You can think of it as the analog to the Devil in Christianity - that bastard that knows just how, in every situation, to make the dumb choice seem best, and you only realize this once the deed is done, every single time.

The struggle becomes working hard to learn as best you can what will truly make you happiest, and once you find it, fighting for it with every fiber. Working for all of humanity, in an egalitarian way, is what has shaped my life's plan. I think of it as my purpose. However I'm a normal guy, I give way to a lot of distractions. The battle is to only give way an appropriate amount. A balance must be struck. Surely leisure and being respected are important, but I have learned through research and experience that they are not the most important, not by a long shot.

As a side note, the craving we have for prestige basically single-handedly explains all examples of conspicuous consumption. People in general, when actually faced with a choice, choose a thing they earlier said they would not prefer just because it is conspicuous. For instance they choose to be given a new prestigious title over getting a free vacation. The vacation is pleasurable but incurs little prestige. Etc.

Also, yes, unhappiness makes you happy. The thing that is confusing here is that happiness has many meanings, all of which are being used in this conversation.

One simple meaning is bodily pleasure - that which we gain from leisure - food, sex, vacations.

Another meaning includes other more abstract things - seeing pretty landscapes, getting a lot of work done, helping out a friend in need. You could tentatively label this type of happiness "fulfillment." This is the good feeling I get when I think about the good things I have done, especially the things that were hard. I imagine it is similar to the feeling parents get when they contemplate the children they have raised.

In fact it is fairly easy to disprove your claim that my statement made no sense. Parents who raise children, when asked to report their happiness, show consistently lower levels of happiness than do those who do not raise children. Literally just about every single time.

So what gives? Why do people keep having kids? My suspicion is that these people, when asked about happiness, thought of simple pleasures. Your moment-to-moment mood. A lot of people think of happiness as just being really smiley and being in a good mood and getting what you want. That's only one, shallow kind. Most people know this but don't articulate it. We want more than that, we want all kind of strange, abstract things. And the wants often conflict. I might want to be an ascetic monk. But I might also really love cream puffs. Dilemma.

Anyway if they changed the poll to ask about fulfillment and satisfaction with direction in life I am confident that those with children would probably usually report more happiness in that respect. People, after all, continue to have kids. They do so because they believe it will make them happier to do so, in one way or another. In this particular example, the abstract thing that they get out of raising their kids is love. They give up a shit-ton of material things, their money, their health, their youth, their time, but they gain love, and many (most?) people find this to be worth it.

The same goes for a man who shuns happiness. Are there not examples of this the world over? I mentioned ascetic monks - what do you suppose their goals are if not exactly what I have described? And Buddhists who meditate with the goal of annihilating the self? Surely they are not pursuing personal happiness? I think they would deny it, but I believe they still are. They think that the only way they can really be happy is to exist outside of the self. Or something along those lines.

It is an interesting exercise to read about the belief system of any particular group, and read it with the pursuit of happiness in mind. It becomes obvious that when someone is trying to convince another person to do something or believe something (as a diplomacy player this will be obvious) that all of the truly convincing arguments revolve around what benefits will accrue to the person.

Follow the Buddha and find peace!
Worship Jesus and commune God!
Work hard and get to the top!
Join the army and serve your country!

All of these things will appeal to people who internally have a belief that "serving your country" or "communing with God" are good things, that is to say, that they are things that will make them happy.

In fact, all uses of the normative words like "should" "ought" "good" and "want" have the concept of the pursuit of happiness tied up in them. If I say "you should not smoke cigarettes," at the end of the day that "you should not" means that if you do, more unhappiness than happiness will result.

Thus the statement "why should I pursue happiness? What makes it a worthy aim?" becomes meaningless - a tautology. What you are asking is: "Why would pursuing happiness make me happy?"

Is the sky blue?
Zmaj (215 D(B))
30 Jun 12 UTC
Thucydides, you said: "Vanity is just the selfish pursuit of happiness." I wouldn't agree, but OK, let's leave it at that. I don't feel like quibbling around terminology when there are more serious matters to discuss.

"The reason we crave respect and prestige so much is that it is very very evolutionarily advantageous. (...) Those who have it have more healthy children." Where do you get this stuff? Prestige regions: Europe and the US. Children: India and Africa. If anything, prestige goes against children.

"The struggle becomes working hard to learn as best you can what will truly make you happiest, and once you find it, fighting for it with every fiber." But, my dear Thucydides, we do it anyway. We both agree that people pursue happiness/vanity regardless of whether they know it or not. So why make it our explicit goal? Are we trying to become happiness professionals? To say on our deathbed: hey, I've accumulated tons of happiness? I don't get your sense of purpose.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
30 Jun 12 UTC
Bro why does no one on this forum read my posts.

The desire for prestige is a *genetic, inborn trait* which is measured *in all human populations*.

Also *the practice of having children occurs in every people group across the entire Earth*

..........................don't be a fool. Also is it really so hard to imagine someone (probably a man) partly wanting 18 kids because where he comes from a huge family confers prestige? I was not, however, conflating the desire for prestige and the desire for children. Please quote the sentence in which I made that statement if you would.

People pursue happiness no matter what, but they don't necessarily do it well. I know that it is my goal, and I want to achieve my goal as best I can. So I try to improve. Just because I *am trying* doesn't mean I am doing as best I can.

are you drunk or something? No one sits on their deathbed and says "I've accumulated tons of happiness" because that is stilted ugly wording. They do express that exact sentiment though, "Don't worry guys, I've had a happy life."
Thucydides (864 D(B))
30 Jun 12 UTC
I make it my explicit goal, by the way, as a matter of course. There is no other fundamental goal. I then go about trying to see the best route, and form secondary goals that help in the service of the ultimate goal. The largest of these then become the purpose of my life.

It is so with every person. Anyone who has a life ambition has it because they believe fulfilling the goal is a good route to happiness.
Zmaj (215 D(B))
30 Jun 12 UTC
OK, never mind. I thought we were having a discussion.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
30 Jun 12 UTC
When my refutation of your post is contained in my previous post, it becomes rather irritating to simply repeat myself. Apologies.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
11 Jul 12 UTC
'That is the most false analogy I have read. A teenager taking their own life is not the same as mankind destroying itself. One is an act of intent (suicide) while I doubt mankind intends to destroy itself.'

No. The analogy assumes that humanity has some intention. That an individual neuron contributes to a teen suicide does not mean it knows or understands the cause and effect which it is part of. The individual neuron is part of the intention but you must look at the large scale effect on the collection of neurons to see the important quality of the intention's effect.

In the same sense individual humans can be unaware of the intention of the whole of humanity.

Also there is no grand design of evolution, it just looks like everything fits together perfectly, when multiple extinction events demonstrate that evolution fails to account for environmental and/or failures due to over complexity... Mass extinctions (there have only been 5/6) reduce the complexity of the biosphere to a point where it is effectively set back millions of years and with new starting conditions you expect to see a different evolved biosphere (of all physically possible configurations)

Whether 'humanity' has an intention depends on the coordination and comminication...
orathaic (1009 D(B))
12 Jul 12 UTC
you can also look at corporations as 'individuals' competing/cooperating with each other, internal organization, external aggression, growth, self-propagating, often death aswell.

You can actually look at the statistics of the growth rates and effeciencies, and contrast with that of a wide range a animals... (whose metabolic rates, and lifespans generally correlate for reasons based on hard underlying physics...)


51 replies
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