"Despite Putin's denials smeck established that this organisation receives considerable financial federal support. Maybe for a non-profit organisation all is not as clear as it might be?"

For family planning and health services/preventive care, something you don't believe in. I guess more dead poor women is no skin off your back.

"Obviously I do not know as much about it as you guys living, as I do, in the UK"

You never comment on UK politics except to say how much better you are than Americans and everybody else. Where do anarchists go to learn blind chauvinistic adoration for their country?

@fulhamish you said: "Dexter any chance of addressing all of my points on the organisation? That if youremember was what you asked of me in your ''neutral'' thread."

So - I take it you concede my point about PP salaries being reasonable?

As to other points...

"1) The name annoys me. These guys conduct 62 abortions for every adoption referral. I wonder how approptiate that name is in that context."

I'm not so sure that they've taken on adoption services as a primary focus... actually I would be surprised if they had. There are certainly already (prior to PP as well) a number of organizations that already handle adoption. Do they need a name change? I don't think necessarily so. Anytime an organization changes a name there is a significant cost, both in the administration of the name change and in a reduction of name recognition. I can see how the name annoys you - but it does not annoy me at all. Besides... adoption in general is far less common than abortion (i.e. don't blame PP for the overall statistic)... about 1% of live births end in adoption.

"[re: salaries]"
addressed in earlier post

"3) Despite Putin's denials smeck established that this organisation receives considerable financial federal support. Maybe for a non-profit organisation all is not as clear as it might be?"

Not sure on the legalities here... I spent 5 minutes looking into it and U.S. law regarding non-profits is less than clear... there are several categories that are quite different (and I'm not sure what category PP falls into) and the differences between those categories are significant. I do, however, in general favor clarity and transparency... even in for-profit corporations...

"4) They had a considerable financial surplus last year, running into the tens of millions of dollars, why? Moreover, why claim federal support when you are running att a surplus?"

Surpluses, in a non-profit, can and do get re-invested... surpluses are a good thing and allow for growth beyond what was planned for in the previous budget. I don't see a problem here. It's not like some owner somewhere is making off with scads of cash.

"5) The eugenics and likely racist background of the organisation makes one question its present stance. Even if one were to accept that this is now all ancient history, for some people in the Black community in particular this still leaves a nasty taste in the mouth."

The entire U.S. has a racist background. Margaret Sanger was 100 years ago. That is a long time. Jim Crow was in place and in full blossom, KKK was killing people, towns razed, etc. Women didn't have the vote, couldn't legally sign contracts, couldn't open a bank account, couldn't divorce in most cases, beating in a marriage was considered normal, etc. It was a very different world - especially both for blacks and for women.

As for the Black community... most complaints I hear in that regard (the vast majority) are from evangelical white pro-life political organizations. Maybe there are blacks who don't trust PP because of the eugenics movement. I don't see what relevance it has today. It is not like anyone is practicing eugenics. Indeed, as far as the black community, as Putin pointed out there are far *fewer* PP locations in black communities. And considering that poverty is associated with lower use of contraceptives, that is a problem - i.e. blacks are an underserved population (as usual). If PP was trying to wipe out blacks surely they would: 1) be pushing sterilization, 2) be * predominantly or only* in black communities, 3) PP would not providing health services other than birth control (i.e. diseases would be desirable if one is trying to kill people). Further, we would hear more about it than simply from fringe right-wing hate sites.

Amazing! Tettleton's Chew said something that wasn't far-right!

Does this mean I need to unblock him? (I doubt it).

dexter morgan: No, I don't think it qualifies. He was still ranting, ha ha.

"[you] want poor women to die of breast cancer"

Let them die and decrease the surplus population.

Sorry, bad Dickensian joke...

@Putin - I've been doing a lot of yanking your chain here. But most of it has been troliing to get you off kilter (something so easy to do). If you want to see my real views on abortion and the like, see the other thread on the topic.

My original post was supposed to be followed up with a "defunding PP = awesome!" post after hopefully only Putin had chimed in as I just wanted to prod Putty with a verbal hot poker and, in my mind's eye, watch the veins on his forehead pop out as he furiously posted more crap about walking 9 month pregnant women to PP clinics. It's just so much fun to get Mister "IHateRichPeople" up in arms, especially when you consider he is a grad student and TA at a major university living on mommy and daddy's money - in other words a rich person. His own self loathing is just incredibly fun to watch.

It is interesting to see the contrast between posts of the same people (here and in other threads over the months) depending on whether they are frustrated, outraged, infuriated, irritated (and/or teasing someone who are feeling those things)... or they are calm.

@Putin, it would be interesting to see you calm. I suspect you have an intellect to match your explosive anger and strong opinions (and young age, I suspect?).

In summation, Putin33 loves abortion. Anyone who doesn't love abortion, or is less absolutist about the issue, hates women and is no different than the people who protest outside abortion clinics. Perfect way to persuade people to your line of thinking.

I don't think this is the sort of discussion Bill Kristol expected to spark by sending out the Mitch Daniels hoax.

Sorry Draugnar, but I think you deserve this coming back to haunt you:
threadID=472356 <----- GREAT READ!
threadID=476020

bump ;-)

Really JECE? That's the best you got? A couple threads from more than 2 years ago when my meds were fucked to hell and back cause they had just discovered my thyroid was out of whack? And note that one major participant in the first thread has since been banned for being a multi and two others from both of them haven't been on in over a year.

I have no patience for these anti-abortionist trolls. My patience reduces when the issue is so important, much like I cannot tolerate union haters. Because there has been a war on women's health that has been going on ever since these teabaggers swept to power at the state level. It's not just an academic exercise. Real people are being harmed. The hypocrisy of these clowns is just so outrageous. The crocodile tears for the unborn are so fake. The concern for the wellbeing of children is such a lie. They are advocating the moral equivalent of shutting down hospitals and OB/GYNs because of their fake concern that federal money is "funding abortions" which is proven to be demonstrably false.

To these fundamentalist pricks, lying in order to attack women's health is not a sin, but a holy sacrament.

So sorry if I blew up, but especially with Fulham, he annoys the everloving shit out of me. He never responds to anything. He repeats lie after lie, going from one tangent to the next. He's like Tettleton Chew, except at least you laugh off TC as being cartoonish. Fulham annoys me because he likes to pretend he's reasonable and mild mannered. Even progressive. He's nothing but a reactionary, but he tries to pass himself off as being a progressive. At least you know where TC, Krellin, and the rest of them stand.

It saddens me that leftists are buying into this rubbish that Sanger was 'racist' or a Nazi (especially since she was a vociferous critic of Nazism and race-based eugenics, unlike the conservatives in America at the time). I can't count how many lies have been said about Sanger, and how much of her writing has been completely ripped from their original context and distorted beyond recognition. The hatchet job they have done on her is unbelievable, and demonstrates quite clearly that abortion isn't their concern, since Sanger didn't even advocate for the right to abortion, but rather advocated tirelessly for birth control.

http://fundamentalistdeceit.blogspot.com/2008/01/demonizing-of-margaret-sanger.html

"especially when you consider he is a grad student and TA at a major university living on mommy and daddy's money - in other words a rich person. His own self loathing is just incredibly fun to watch."

I can't pay my bills right now, you ass. I have $60,000+ in student loans to pay off and thanks to the Republicans interest rates are likely to go up. My wife is working her way through nursing school. I *earned* a stipend for my TA work, you dick. And yes it's actually fucking work, a lot of work, to teach classes and finish a dissertation. Not a penny came from my parents throughout grad school. Don't project your own privilege on to me. I did not grow up poor, my dad had an ok paying job at a power plant thanks to his *union* membership and long tenure there, but this dumb narrative about my life that you made up in your head and have been spouting off as if it were true got old a long time ago.

GFY.

Draugnar: I'm sorry; what did you say? Did I hear that you wanted me to push some more buttons?

@Putin - It's no different than the fiction you have in your head about my life. I grew up in a middle class household. Went to public school. And went into the MArine Corps so they could pay my way through college. I worked two jobs, one fulltimne and one partime, while living on my own when I was in school, and never got a dime from my parents once I left the house to go into the service.

And what fiction did I make up again, bootstrapper?

Oh, and your married? I guess it's your wife you are escorting to the aboertion clinic. I don't blame her. If I were pregnant with your spawn, I'd want it the fuck out of me too.

@Putin - " Don't project your own privilege on to me"

That, fiction VVPutinfuck.

How is being a TA= "living on mommy and daddy's money," You do know that being a TA is a job that pays so you don't have to live on mommy and daddy's money (or go into debt if you don't mind living below the poverty line)

"If I were pregnant with your spawn, I'd want it the fuck out of me too."

Stay classy, pervert.

"That, fiction VVPutinfuck."

It's not fiction, you admitted to being rich. You brag about how much you pay in taxes.

Draug is probably the least stable person i have seen on the internet

I'm no Putin33 fan, but knock it off Draugnar. That's not okay.

My priviledge? I guess the fact that I *earn* 6 figures a year makes me priviledged, but I took you to mean it was just given to me. If that was not what you meant, then I apologize, Putin. But somehow I think you still believe I come from some rich family and don't earn my own money as a software developer.

@Invictus - Putin goes aroudn calling everyone names but directly and indirectly. If he can't take it, he can fuck off while I fuck his wife. And it's perfectly OK. I don't give a fuck what you say.

Putin calls people names yes, but I don't think he ever talked about fucking someone's wife.

SantaClausowitz: Yes.

Putin33: I repeat; why the hell are you still listening to this shit?
1: Draugnar intended to get you riled up from the beginning, so is most unlikely to take your arguments about abortion seriously.
2: It is extremely hard to convince people who are against abortions that their stance is immoral, even if you were talking to them in person. It is for many reasons almost impossible to do the same over an on-line forum.
3. Of course I can not know this for sure, but it seems to me that you are spending way to much time pursing an entirely futile endeavour. I know I couldn't keep up with posts like you. It would take way too much time and be excruciatingly frustrating.
4. Replying to Draugnar should not be a matter of honor. It is hard to take Draugnar seriously; I'm sure almost no users of webDiplomacy do.

to much --> too much