Nonexistent.

Unless your playing with people willing to take second, which most good players aren't.

So at the higher levels, almost every game includes a stab?

Yes. When I play, I stab probably 3-4 times on average, and that's if I'm like Italy, with very few options. As Germany, expect 8 or so stabs.

I find a victorious Italy stabs a lot more; Playing a good Italy requires a lot of brutality and flexibility, solid alliances loose you a lot more than they gain simply because your "allies" tend to expand a lot faster.

On the other hand, I've won a game with the French with only a single stab on my own part and I find they generally have to stab less. Turkey as well.

To the original question: Just clarification; When you say is it possible to win without stabbing do you mean lying/attacking allies at all or simply attacking without some form of declaration of war?


If you have points/money on the line it is possible to solo while holding onto an ally. Even in an all of nothing game it's possible for two allies to have a "friendly race" to 18 centers, but the balance is very easy for other players to mess with and it would be very difficult to get enough centers in the first place without stabbing someone.

If you're going for solo game without attacking allies, you're best shot would be to play Turkey exceedingly well in a juggernaut while keeping Russia convinced that a stab would be too costly to both sides lines, but it would take a lot of luck and as stated above failings in the rest of the board.

While in the second case, where you are fine with concealing your purposes until open war and have no issues starting one with an ally, a declaration of war severly handicaps your initiative attacking them. Allowing them to search for more allies and convince yours to turn against you [which is highly likely consider you just put his plans in jeopardy]. Even in the best case scenario, it costs you precious time which means that your triangle will go significantly slower and make soloing significantly more difficult.

*Sigh* I hate this question in general. Does anyone have a good definition of a stab, cause I haven't heard one yet. I think of a stab as something that ends an alliance between 2 countries, and I have found that those aren't all that common. The trick is to make progress at the right time against the right people so one of 2 things happens. One, nobody is in a position to stop you. Two, nobody is overly threatened by your gains.

@Fauxlosophe, do you play a lot outside this site, because you only have one game here.

Where a stab is defined as an act of deception which has significant consequences for the victim, if I haven't stabbed you in a given game, one of three things is happening:

(1) You didn't live long enough for me to get the chance
(2) I just never got around to it
(3) It hasn't happened yet

^^he stabs me a lot. Never be a france or germany to his england lol.

Man, I haven't done that since our first game together.

Actually, I've gotten France a lot lately in our games.

Ohhhh, is that a helpful hint???

Just checked my games. Of the last 4 I've played, you've soloed two of them lol

I have done it 3 times.

I have seen 2 people do it once, not in gunboats.

No, just an observation that the past two games we played, I soloed as France. lol

Basically, if you play anon, yeah you should stab. But I look at past games of my opponents. If they have stabbed someone in the past. Then I don't trust them, I will still ally with them (maybe) but I wont leave my back open.

If they have never stabbed before, I will leave my back completely open to an ally.

Unless you're me. I kid you not, I have had at least one person identify me within the first year of the past five anon games I've played. HOW DO YOU PEOPLE DO IT?!

Stop mentioning Louisiana. You're the only person on this site from Louisiana lol

Well you have this talking style that most don't...

............ because you got the same nation ans opened with the statement of........... this looks familiar.....

@goldfigner: nah, killer135 is too... and besides I didn't even bring up Louisiana
@Fasces: like what?
@centurion: lucky guess

i guessed twice ho

boy how'd you guess the first time hmmmmmmmmm?

just cause ima genius i suppose

I dunno. I never play anon (unless gunboat or invite games) so I have never had to guess.

@jmo: I'm registered under the samename on vDip where I lurked a couple months longer and used to play a decent bit in person. [I might try rallying together a new group for it soon]. I'm not exactly a tactical genius at this game, but I've played enough to know what works for me.

centurion is such a genius that his Munich never fell

oh wait

bastard. its not my fault it appears whenever you get italy you appear to receive a completely pliable south and east.

Everybody Loves Eden.

I'll address some back comments and include my own thoughts. First off, if someone is genuinely stabbing 8 times, I'm sure their game is basically over. I find that the best way to play is to make tactical decisions on when and where to stab. I tell the truth 90% of the time and lie 10% and make my lies count.

Secondly, if you're merely lying to someone who never really had the opportunity to trust you, it's not much of a stab and in 1901, you can't really stab unless you really *really* dupe the guy who's totally committed. I will make an alliance last until I can afford to ditch it, and if I can't ditch it, I'll keep it. In any event, you cannot possibly win a game without stabbing someone and maybe even two people. If you and an ally are simply "racing for 18" holding hands, then you're playing the wrong game.

I remember the first time I stabbed a guy. It was glorious and fun and I talked him into staying my ally for another turn and another stab. But then again, it was at a convention and someone I didn't know. I also remember the first time I stabbed a good ally. It was hard to do the first time and I tried talking myself out of it for a while. The first real stab is hard to do but it gets easier over time.

And yes, everyone loves Eden. Right up until they stab him or he stabs them.

When I have 15 sc, and my ally has 13, and he stabs me and I get a solo, I technically never stabbed someone in the game...

Alright, so I went back to some of my games and actually looked. 7-8 was a bit of an exaggeration. 3-4 is actually the true amount, even a bit high for some games where I get stabbed rather than stab. There are just so many times that I "stab" someone for one season, and then get a concession and back off.

id say it happens just not often