standard deviation of performance scores on vdip
ancmed 0.72
world9 0.69
classic 0.50
modern2 0.42
empire4 0.31
both new variants are more balanced than classic

initiate counterargument: performance score is wrong measure

I find it very balanced, because you can build anywhere. That seems to be overlooked and it may seem like corner powers are OP and countries like Poland are weak, but with the build anywhere and SC's hanging around in abundance, it's decently balanced.

I think Russia, England and Turkey may be a bit stronger than Poland and Ukraine (I think? the black one) for example, but Poland and Ukraine (I think) make good allies against Russia for example, so that compensates...

So I definitely some are stronger but they all require just about the same amount of diplomacy to win I'd say, so I suppose they're even.

In gunboat there is less diplomacy. I agree Poland is in a weaker spot but with Russia being spread out, it means nothing. England loses Gibraltar the first year so by no means do I see England in a stronger position. It is now surrounded by more seas, meaning it it more easily defended, but it is also harder to move out of. Of course, the build anywhere compensates but I disagree with you. Turkey is under attack from Ukraine in the first year and fights with Egypt of the Middle East like Israel. In addition, Russia is as I said, spread out and the addition of the Eastern back door weakens him even more. Of course, I have yet to see a real game in action, so don't mind that, but this is simply what I see happening. I can see French Spanish alliances forming in the first few years, or French-German. I agree that Poland and Ukraine should ally, but I think perhaps even stronger could be Russia-Ukraine, similar to Russia-Austria in classic. I see it very balanced, but I don't see Turkey being too much stronger, and especially not England. Build anywhere means that France can win by controlling the Easten half of the board while not having an original supply center. I think that of all things evens it out most.

Poland looks weak but can easily get three builds in year 1.

Sounds like Austria.

If Poland doesn't get attacked, yes. But if he does get attacked, no way. Russia can easily end up with 6 centers in year 1, even if he does get attacked. As for spread thin: 4 centers next to eachother. There's just one SC "spread thin".

If you look, Russia has many borders to defend, and 3 direct neighbors to deal with. Russia is weak because it would have to declare war quite soon. Alliances are everything of course. Poland is like the new Austria, I agree bosox. Poland should not be attacked so soon in year one by Ukraine, as it would have to worry about the same thing.

Imagine a Juggernaut with Egypt joining the fun.

That would be scary, but Turkey is even weaker now because of Egypt. Egypt is the new Turkey with slow movement and slow growth. I see France Spain and England scary. Western Juggernaut.

Or Ukraine. Or Poland. Or Germany. Anyone joining the fun means the rest of the east is screwed... Does it?

That would be tough on Turkey I would think.

Most of the middle is likely going to get screwed if they don't all band together in all of these scenarios.

Juggernauts are rare (East or West) because you'd need to have at least 3 players whoa re willing to work together, and the central player is usually left uneasy because he is sandwiched.

But Turkey gets a load of neutral SCs, and the first enemy is pretty far away...

Agreed, Halt and bosox. That's why I see the R-T-Eg alliance less likely. I don't see as much an issue with Spain-F-Eng though.

I see it more the other way around. I don't feel like Turkey would be screwed at all, but France... Or Spain...

That's why I think England has an advantage too.

Spain/France/England could be devastating but the potential for fighting, specifically between France and Spain, is just so high because they border home centers. I can see that forming and working for four or five years before degrading into a slugfest (at which point the eastern powers will form their own thing and we have a board game again).

England has less an advantage. I don't see how you don't see it. It is so far away from other SC's like Egypt. France would not be screwed over, as England is far away enough, has food in Germany to eat, and Spain goes south to Africa and East via sea to Italy. Turkey is screwed because Egypt naturally wants to go north, fighting over Israel, and Turkey fights with Russia over land in Ukraine and control of the Black Sea as usual.

If Turkey and Russia communicate, I don't see the Black Sea being important at all. The one who controls it cannot necessarily stop - or initiate - an attack from/on the other successfully, unlike the Classic map where it almost guarantees you one or more of the other's centers.

True. I like how the black sea was split into East and West. The Volga also adds interest, as Iran gives a back door for fleets.

Because there are neutrals on both coasts, they had to split it up.

Right. I find the Balkans a complete warzone. So fun. So many neutrals and complete mayhem. I find Gibraltar a bit strange, but I suppose England gets morocco anyway so it doesn't matter as much.

Gibraltar is only to make sure that France and Spain can't combine to squish England immediately because they have a diplomatic opening to the Mediterranean. That center is another reason that the F/S/E won't work, but a smart England will realize that it won't matter whether or not he has an opening to Africa if he's friendly with Spain and France because they'll make sure he has plenty to chew on.

The Balkans are complete mayhem in real life, so I guess it's appropriate here too.

LOL bosox.
I understand the balancing in giving England Gibraltar. I just see England giving it up to Spain for an alliance and England taking Morocco Year 1.

This is a good thread.

threadID=991357

Variant live gunboat: gameID=119665
Try it out...

Please post live games in the proper thread.

If I weren't planning on taking a break from this site once the World Gunboat Tournament is over, I would seriously consider starting a new gunboat tournament just to test out all these theories about the new map...

I was about to take a hiatus too, but now I'm excited to play some new maps.

what is englands' position in modern 2?

I believe all fleets. Check any of the ongoing games and rewind to the beginning.