Someone dies in each. If you kill yourself then your life is so miserable you felt there was no escape. Which is terrible, no one should live like that, there are ways to get help and more effort needs to go into making those options accessible to people with mental illness or desperate situations.

Homicide is committed all the time, premeditated, spur of the moment, vehicular, it can be deliberate or an accident.

Which is worse though, someone dies in both cases, both are equally terrible, you can't put a value on human life. Either case shows a failure in society, except in the case of accidental homicide (person runs in front of the car on the highway, you have no time to swerve). Trying to put a value on one human life over the other is impossible though.

What Mapu said overall. When it comes to the effect on others around the deceased, suicide can have a worse effect because they tend to think "Why didn't I see the signs?" Homicide can also have some major side effects, but it often involve the people aroudn the killer and the killer himself if it is involuntary/accidental as he may face personal demons having killed someone even if by accident. For clarification, homicide is *not* the same thing as murder. All murders are homicides and all homicides are deaths, but not all deaths are homicides and not all homicides are murders.

But it is still the individual's choice.

ok, thanks for the replies so far...

Just to keep it more focused on what I actually meant, compare suicide to murder please, didn't know what Draugnar said, I'm not a native speaker.

I thought that might be the case. Anytime someone dies at the hands of another, even in an accident, it is a homocide. IF the person was in someway negligent, they are possibly prosecuted, but often if they show honest remorse and the family of the deceased sees the remorse (especially when it is a friend of the family) there is no prosecution or the sentence is waved/suspended. Manslaughter and murder are where the action is more intentional with manslaughter not necessarily being intended to kill the person, but was clearly intended to do them hamr or was doing something else illegal and, in the process, someone died.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNjcuZ-LiSY

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/homicide

"The killing of one human being by another human being.

Although the term homicide is sometimes used synonymously with murder, homicide is broader in scope than murder. Murder is a form of criminal homicide; other forms of homicide might not constitute criminal acts..."

Murder is way worse. You want to kill yourself, go for it. But don't take someone with you.

Everything you might say about impact on the family and friends of a person who kills himself, you can also say about impact on the family and friends of a person who murders someone else, PLUS the family and friends of the person murdered.

Homicide is worse, as others said because the victim presumably did not want to die. Still, it's not much worse. In each, a person dies. Society loses.

Two suicides are obviously worse than one homicide.

A lot depends on the circumstances.

Imagine a 16 year old man, for example, whose parents are killed in a car accident on top of him having a hard time in school. In a fit of dispair he kills himself. This is an awful tragedy.

Imagine a 78 year old far-right campaigner who finds out he's going to die soon anyway and decides to blow his brains out in a Cathedral to make a political point. Tragic... not so much.

Imagine the President of Syria decides he can't live with himself any more and hangs himself in the presidential palace. Crack open the champas!

All lives are not equal.

given what jmo said, ie 'you can't put a value on human life' then you can't order (greater than and lesser than are ordering operators) these to things.

It is not a simple question to answer (or i guess you, steephie, wouldn't have asked it) but the asking implies that there is a simple answer, to which I say there is not.

There are many factors which complicate the issue, and living in a world where such things can be simplified may make you feel happier, but it is not the real world... (though you might argue that we all live in simplified models of the real world which our brains are capable of comprehending... ) anyway, making some simplifications can result in answers like : "Two suicides are obviously worse than one homicide."

A suicide could be seen as a good thing, particularly (in the entirely hypothetical) if it was on a mountain where you (and your family) had just crash landed and your body was needed as food for your family... (hence comments above about choice of the dying) but self-sacrifice is a general trend among lots of human, usually self-sacrifice does not require suicide - because we build social structures to support each other, whether economically, emotionally, educationally or whatever.

Suicide is thus a failure of those social supports, some suicides are a result of mental illness, though this is far from universal (i suspect) some people with terminal illness want to choose when and how they die, (dying with dignity) while others with non-terminal but chronic illnesses may also wish to 'end their misery'

Meanwhile homicide sucks, but as was pointed out, is sometimes legal - though the definition is a human killing another human, and I guessing that capital punishment
is seen as killing of a human by the state rather than by an individual... i'm going to go and include it, as the state is a collection of humans (though i find this to be a difficult question on it's own, especially as the whole is often greater than the sum of it's parts)

Regardless, in this case it is considered to be a good thing. Now which is worse, well i think that suicide to reduce suffering (when mental illness is not in question) is better than capital punishment to prevent potential suffering which the criminal has not yet committed. And while it may satisfy a need for vengeance, i think that the gain is smaller.

"Still, it's not much worse. In each, a person dies. Society loses."

It is horrifying that somebody could come, in either situation, to see the loss suffered by "society" as even worth mentioning compared to the loss suffered by the victim (and, secondarily, his family and friends).

@semck: society is made up of those people, so it's loss is the collective loss they personally feel along with any other opportunity loss the economy might feel.

It is sad that you automatically assume that these parts of our society are not counted, just because they are not commodified.

Some of the time I suspect that most members of this site deliberately try to misunderstand each others posts. The rest of the time I am certain of it.

No man is an island entire of itself. The death of one bastard enriches us all.

I think we've all agreed that suicide is worse than homicide but that the difference is marginal, so at what point does the harmful repercussions equal out? 14 Murders to 16 Suicides? 5 to 8?

Octavious, the death no human being is something to be celebrated, even the death of a heinous man such as Assad should not be celebrated, his defeat and removal from political power should be, but we should never celebrate the death of a human lest we become monsters.

@ Puddle

Have we? I certainly didn't. All cases are different, ranging from the completely tragic to the beneficial. On balance I'd say that your average murder was probably a lot worse than your average suicide, but even that is guess work based on little evidence.

Any calculation we make will be entirely meaningless.

@ Puddle

I couldn't disagree more. There are many out there whose death can be celebrated as it would bring unquestioned good to the world. It is quite right to mourn what could have been if circumstances had been different, but that doesn't make it wrong to celebrate an end to the evil that was.

Next question. Is murder-suicide better or worse than suicide-murder?

Murder is always the worse death possible as it implies no justification for the death *and* an.unwillingness on the part of the deceased. Homicide, however, is relative on mamy factors. Take out the effect on society assuming neither is a net positive for society as they should have roighly the same effect unless the person is famous. It then comes down to whether the suicide was a release for the deceased and family and friends knew it or if it was a case of manic depression gone to the depression side. I speak from first hand experience as many of you know. My dear friend committed suicide and I still remember her everytime one of these threads comes up or I hear something related on the news or even if the wrong aong comes on the radio. I was watching TV the other day and "The Way We Were" came on which immediately brought her to mind as it was one of her favorite movies. Yet I have another friend killed in a car accident that, while tragic, doesn't strike me any harder than my two friemds who died from heart attacks and strokes respectively. He was hit when some one else wasn't paying attention and ran a redlight.

I'm not saying that the we shouldn't celebrate the exit from the world stage by men like Osama, just that to actively celebrate their death, rather than their defeat is barbaric. Its a small distinction to make but one which I think is immensely important.

Another reason to not celebrate death - even of remarkably evil people - is that death closes the door to redemption. You may take that religiously or not, I think it works both ways.

Both are bad, selfish acts. Homicide is worse since the killer is depriving someone else of their life against their will, while the suicide chose that fate for themselves. Awful thing all around, though.

I agree with Draugnar that there is a distinction between homicide and murder. Homicide (of enemy combatants) in a war (especially a justified war) is permissible, whereas use of the term "murder" implies that the act is not justified.

Suicide is more of a case-by-case thing. For example, a person who accidentally kills themselves while under the influence of dangerous drugs or someone who kills themselves to avoid or end physical suffering is different than someone who kills themselves for more selfish, unjustifiable reasons.

Life is sacred. This is a fact. But if life must be sacred (not many would argue that life is not sacred, regardless of whether or not you are a theist or an atheist) then is death not also sacred? Death is usually terrible, but in certain situations it can serve as a mercy to end suffering. Intentionally inflicting death on another human should only be a last resort, and intentionally killing oneself should also be a last resort (and never an option for psychological trauma)

i would argue that life is not sacred, because even as an atheist committed to working towards a better world (a utopia, and willing to work with theists who are trying to bring about a kingdom of heaven on earth), i think the idea is stupid. Biology, life is just there, and evolution has left us with the things which continue to exist, and surprise surprise the life which has an instinct to preserve itself has out survived all other possibilities...

Life is not inherently better than non-life, however as a life-form, and having evolved, I am inherently pre-disposed to keep myself alive. So i thus don't disagree with your stupid 'life is sacred' social constraint, it protects me, of course i support it, on a very personal and intellectually inconsistent level.

And i don't know what you mean about an option for psychological trauma, the fact is depression tends to prevent the brain from seeing good things in that person's life, their mind is unwell and unable to function as normal, they can never see things getting better, because while they can imagine things being different, they can't see these as being enjoyable, because depression sucks all the enjoyment of life out of a person... thus as a last resort suicide is an option which some depressed people take because they literally can't see any other options. Their brains are broken (in the sense that I described above - we are 'designed' to preserve ourselves) when someone chooses* suicide they are doing so to end suffering, but that drive is one which we evolved to do good, not harm... so 'ending suffering' which does us harm rather than good is a functioning in a broken manner.</rant>

*note the implied existence of free-will here - yet i also claimed these broken brains see no other option, like their will is circumscribed.

Homocide isn't always intentional though, Invictus. A boxer accidently kills his opponent with a lucky blow. It is a homicide. A parent manages to kill a would be carjacker because their little baby is strapped into a carseat in back. It is a homicide. A copy shoots a school shooter. It is a homicide.

Cop not copy

Interesting debate.

What if you had been kidnapped and we're expecting with a very Hugh degree of certainty to be murdered in the morning. Is suicide then an option? Does it allow you choice and deny your murderers their moment?

What of the aftermath of suicide generally, does a suicide prevent parents and loved ones being 'proud' of the deceased? Would you rather your loved ones commit suicide at 40 than die trying to protect a friend from being mugged at 20 ?

What about suicidal missions in wartime? A young soldier throwing themselves on a grenade to prevent further lose of life. Is this death more noble than a young guardsman having his throat slit because he didn't hear his attacker coming?

No answers here, only questions.

@semck

The victim, the family, and everyone and everything else are all part of society... that goes without saying?

@Maniac - Throwing oneself on a grenade is not suicide. It is an act of self-sacrifice in defense of others and, as such, is qualitative little different from dying while defending another innocent like a firefighter or a police officer.

As far as pride in the deceased, that is a personal issue up to the loved ones and friends. I was always proud of Martha for her fight against her manic-depression. As far as pride for how she died, I feel no pride about it, but I do not feel ashamed to have known her nor do I feel angry at her nor do I forgive her. There is nothing to forgive. She had a condition that, despite her best efforts, caused her to loose her children in a divorce and eventually drove her to suicide despite my best efforts. What I feel is sad for her being gone and angry at myself that I couldn't figure out how to do more to show her that she was loved by her friends unconditionally even when she felt she neither deserved that love nor could love herself.