Damn, I should have run. Draugnar means Wolffire after all.

Vote Draugnar (independent) in 2012, 2016, 2020, 2024 and on and on until I win or die!

And Putin, I didn't respond because, quite honestly, I figure it will be overturned completely by the USSC eventually and, if not, well it took more than just the Mormons to pass it. They are still only one vote per person.

Do I like it? No. I've posted many times in the past my support for equal rights for *all* people: black or white, male or female, religious whack job or militant athiest, gay or straight or bi or pan or tran. As long as they don't have unwilling participants (like truly underage children or animals), the LGBTQ community should have every right we have.

That si why Prop 8 doesn't concern me becaus eI actually do think the USSC will completely revoke it as unconstitutional. What concerns me more on that front is a US Constitutional Amendment that establishes the same principles or grants the right to establish those principles to the individual states because the courts cannot overturn an amendment that is ratified by the states. It's out of their jurisdiction.

Hang on, did you just refer to the presidential candidate as a fairy? Were you referring to David Norris? Cause if so, fuck you, you homophobic asshole.

@Mafia - I'm pretty sure you were being funny, but with no smiley face or winkey on the end, I can't be sure. So, I will clarify for orathaic. He is referring to fairies with wings that flutter around. You know, imaginary creatures like Tinkerbell in Peter Pan.

Then again, after reading up on the Irish President's role, the race, and David Norris... Maybe I shouldn't be so quick to defend orathaic. I'll let him answer to that after all.

... Uhh, I'm pretty sure that's what was called a double entendre. There really was an openly gay candidate in the recent Irish presidential election, but he since he called the winner a wizard it allowed the opportunity for a clever double entendre involving a homophobic slur.

That's why I decided to let him answer for himself. If he admits it, I'm 1000% behind you, Mafia.

Yeah sorry, I think our two messages got crossed. I read your first reply, wrote mine, and after I hit post, your second reply was already up. Don't you hate when that happens?

Putin, it is ok to criticise their beliefs, political or otherwise, but it is not ok to criticise the fact that they are more politically organised than other groups and interests. It is completely acceptable for them to organise themselves and vote the people they believe will represent them into office. You cannot say that their way of political influence is illegitimate.
You can do the following
1. Let them vote in their preferred people while you blabber about how their organisation is evil and how they are causing America to suffer. Which doesn't change a thing at all. Their representative is still in office.
2. Participate in a movement to elect your chosen representative instead of a Mormon one who will attend to Mormon interests.
OK?

Oh dear, so sensitive. Yes i refered to norris as a fairy, i also voted for him and spent some time argueing that the big media hype over his calling for some israeli court to be lenient (effectively acting as a character witness) while using official senatorial office paper was exactly right.

I'm glad no-one i used that joke in face-to-face with is as sensitive

oh, and why don't i see you jumping down my throat for referring to Michael D Higgins as a Leprechaun, i mean he is vertically challenged, but does that make me height-ist? or shortophobic?

...I was so confused this morning when I thought I had opened the World Cup discussion but had actually opened this one.

"oh, and why don't i see you jumping down my throat for referring to Michael D Higgins as a Leprechaun, i mean he is vertically challenged, but does that make me height-ist? or shortophobic?" - Yes it does, I'm not sure if that would fall under the category of ableism, but it's a form of prejudice either way. The only reason I didn't jump down your throat for that is because I hadn't heard of Higgins, and was not aware there was a candidate who was a little person.

I wasn't aware that it was a controversial point that using slurs makes you bigoted. That's kinda why we call them slurs.

"I'm glad no-one i used that joke in face-to-face with is as sensitive" - Or maybe they were just feeling too awkward, or shy, or guilty about calling you out on your homophobic joke.

i don't consider 'fairy' to be a slur.

and to use urban dictionary as a measure*, neither does the rest of the world: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fairy

*maybe not the best measure in the world, but the best I have

To anyone who was offended. That was not my intent. But you have every right to ignore my intent and be offended.

uh... idk about you, but the third definition actually seems to fit pretty well to what Mafia was saying to me

that is true. I'm 'measuring' that a third definition is weaker than a first or second.... you are allowed to assume my words mean whatever you want, but i'm not responsible for the assumptions of others.

"i don't consider 'fairy' to be a slur."

And that's your call to make?

"You cannot say that their way of political influence is illegitimate."

I could care less if their influence is "legitimate", frankly the lack of transparency with churches and their political organization isn't legitimate, the whole point is the country should be worried. So actually address the argument or leave it.

Well, churches are covered under religious freedom and have no need for transparency in so far as thier beliefs and what they do with their money. They only should be required to have transparency when one of their order commits a crime.

But I agree whole heartedly that "fairy" when used to refer to a gay man is a homophobic slur and unacceptable. Just because a man may be gay doesn't mean he is effeminate. And even if he is, there is no reason to attack him with hurtful words just because his personality doesn't meet one's definition of normal. No one is normal and anyone who thinks they are is full of shit. We all have quirks so people should stop using other's personality traits against them.

Just because you take offence to the term 'fairy' doesn't mean it was meant offensively, nor that another individual would take offence.

I've never heard it used as a slur before, and the most popular definitions i can find don't mention it as a slur.

Offence is something you take. Thus your problem not mine.

I was not attacking anyone, i was demonstrating how little irish people think of their presidential elections by making a joke of it.

"Thus your problem not mine."

Because if you can't find it on the internet it must not be offensive. And because words only harm if the offender thinks it's wrong, right?

And because words only harm if the offender thinks it's wrong, right?

That could be the subject of a huge debate. I know you think insults exist because of their perceived meaning by society; I think insults exist because of the perceived meaning of the person hearing. Let's agree to disagree on that.

" I think insults exist because of the perceived meaning of the person hearing. "

The get out of jail free card for bullies everywhere.

If you're pretty sure the perceived meaning of something you're saying is going to be negative, it's an inexcusable action. You can't say, "It's your fault for holding to such foolish ideas as words being insulting!" when you realize that said ideas are held and use the words that trigger them anyway.

I think there's a distinction to be drawn here between an insult, for instance "you're an asshole", and a slur or other derogatory term.

The term "insult" carries no connotations about the relative power and privilege relationship between the offending and the offended party. It is of course possible that there exists a power imbalance between the insulter and the insultee, but it is equally possible that no power imbalance exists, or it goes the other way. An insult is too general a term, we're not talking about insults here.

A slur on the other hand is necessarily used to denigrate a member of a marginalized group and thus reflects a very real and pertinent power imbalance between the person using the slur and the person to whom the slur applies. It is entirely possible that the marginalized person in question has suffered actual physical or emotional abuse for being part of this marginalized group. And even if they haven't, this marginalization still effects their day to day life in very real ways. And so when slur user flaunts his power and privilege (even if unintentionally) vis a vis the marginalized person, by using a slur, the source of the offense is not simply due to social construct, but due to the demonstration of a very real power imbalance between them.

@Mafia - well said, my friend. I have no problem with swear words. I have no problem with personal insults when they aren't based on stereotypes and slurs for an individuals affiliation with a group, especially when that affiliation is not one of choice (race, sex, mental/physical handicap, sexual orientation) except when used to "win" an argument via ad hominem. But when it is based on one of the affiliations, it is *always* wrong and the responsibility of the speaker. That said, there are times when someone may say something that, in their culture (especially in a global community such as this), is perfectly normal but not in someone else's. Then the accidental offender should apologize and thank the offended person for making them aware of the connotation of what they said in relation to the other culture. We've had that happen here a few times. But there is no way in the world that using "fairy" could be misconstrued by a native English speaker in reference to a gay man as anything other than a derogatory slur. It's only slightly less offensive than calling a gay man a "fag".

And please, no one think I was calling anyone these slurs. They were used for demonstrative purposes only.