bartdogg,
Question related to being made in God's image... Does God have a conscience? Presumably God understands the difference between right and wrong... but does God feel an *obligation* to do right? i.e. does God have a conscience? The OT God seems to not be bound by such measures... the NT God I'm not as sure about.

As far as the last paragraph, yes - the last thing about tending toward sin if God were not hovering over us, holding us in check - that is what I was meaning.

I'll field Dexter's question, off of the assumptions that God exists, is all good, omnipotent, and omniscient.

God is all powerful, so he has no reason to do evil. Anything he wants he can get without sinning. Also, good and evil are, at least Biblically defined as disobeying God, and God couldn't disobey himself. I presume that God doesn't have a conscience because he doesn't need one, because he's incapable of sin.

zuzak,
So the bible, as it defines sin as disobeying God, therefore has no concept of something being inherently good or bad. Everything is based on what God wants. I'm not sure how we get from there to God being good... it seems circular if God's will is what *defines* what is good. With God being without conscience I am tempted to suggest that God is indeed amoral. Is God simply a case of might making right? Shouldn't there be things that are inherently good or evil outside of the issue of whether God wants them or not. Presumably God wants good things... but what about the things he is silent about? And being that he is silent an awful lot, that leaves a lot to be interpreted. The thought that God's will is the definition of right, of course, sets us up for doing great wrongs if we think that it is God's will.

You just said what I (clumsily) was attempting to articulate earlier in a much clearer way. Thanks.

Hereward, kind of you to give the thanks. h/t to your previous post.

Ha, bartdogg, I guess what's different about what I said to what you've heard is that I actually believe it.

What are the hangups you mentioned?

Dexter to answer your above post, God does not have a conscience, because God is good. His power has nothing to do with it. He does good without fail because that's just His character. He cannot deny that. Now, of course, one could argue that some things God does are not "good" for each individual all the time, and to that I'd say you're right! God has an agenda and is working all things to His good and perfect will. Discipline is a good example. While being punished, a child would not, in the midst of it, say "this is good", though it undoubtedly is good for the child in the long run if done with pure motive and heart. This is how God works.

And sin is definitely not just disobeying God. Sin is anything short of absolute perfection. In fact, the word "sin" came from an old archery term. The archers would shoot and if they missed the absolute bullseye by even a mer fraction of an inch, a red flag would be thrown up and "sin!" would be shouted. That is the biblical picture of sin.

For example, if right this very moment, my motive in writing these things to you is anything short of absolute selfless love, than I am in "sin". If I write to you so that you think I'm smart and feed my ego, even the slightest bit, I am in sin. That is how the Bible explains it, it is far different than just disobedience.

More in a bit perhaps, in the middle of a movie with my bride...

@Dexter
Alright then, if good is not defined by what God wants, what determines whether something is good?

You're debating online when there's a lady by you, and one you're married to no less? You need to get your priorities in order, bud.

God creates what's right and wrong since God created everything.

Invictus she keeps leaving to work on the laundry. I'm not neglecting her, but thanks for worrying;)

Thucydides:

I think my major hangup with the "young earth with old appearance" theory is that God would've then had to create death, or at least, dead things. Biblically, death was a result of the fall, so it seems contradictory to say God created dead things before the fall.

Now you could probably say they weren't real things that died, they just were. I suppose I'd have a hard time arguing against that, but it just seems like a slippery slope. But even God creating things with the appearance of having died seems contradictory to the life-giving God of the Bible.

wow, how amusing at the beginning of the thread "somehow I have a feeling this is going to turn into a long thread now...."

bartdogg, so... what IS good? What you're describing almost sounds like Pangloss from Voltaire's Candide: "It is proved that things cannot be other than they are, for since everything is made for a purpose, it follows that everything is made for the best purpose."

I guess I tend to think that if there is "good" that it would have a reality and definition independent of any consciousness that might apply it. Much as I believe that 2+2 always equals 4... whether or not we're here to say it, read it, calculate it, or even get it wrong. The mathematical truth transcends all who might think about or use it... it is more basic. Maybe you see God as more basic than 2+2=4. If God said tomorrow that 2+2=5, would 2+2 then equal 5?

zuzak, what determines what is good? Darned if I know - I guess I can fall into the Supreme Court Justice cop-out and say "I know it when I see it". I realize that is flawed... because sometimes our views of what is good don't agree with each other... and we can't both be right, can we? And yet I think that we have the general ability to judge right from wrong - flawed as our ability may be.

No, I am rather saying that they never existed at all. We just conjecture that they existed. Our books and scientists and historians tell us that past existed, when it did not. It just didn't.

The problems with the fall.... I would say they are the same problem as without this theory, that God still had to create evil. He created Lucifer, he created demons and hell, and he created death and sin. He hates it, but he still created it.

"Good" and "evil" are often so vague and gray that it's difficult to just define it as such. Is it good for me to eat cheerios or frosted flakes this morning? Would it be good for me to skip work today to help the homeless?

Two major types of sin. Sins of commission and sins of inaction. Sins of commission are the ones given the most weight by man, though thats not quite biblical. Do not steal, do not murder... these are sins of commission. You are doing something wrong.

To NOT do something right or good is also a sin. To choose inaction or apathy or lack of empathy etc are the other type of sin.

So, "good" is tough to describe. Biblically it's anything against the will of, and taking away the glory from, God. Again though, God doesn't just proclaim what everything in His will is. Do not murder is often obvious, but for the soldier? Use God's name in vain? Well that obviously will not bring glory to God, so it's clearly a sin.

So I would say something is "good" if it's in the will of the all-good God and brings glory to the all-good God with uncompromising perfection. And think of this! How many actions from your past day or week meet these criterion?! For me it'd be a very very small amount if any at all. Lord have mercy!

..."God still had to create evil"...
...unless evil was always around...
You either have: 1) a universe that has always existed (and evil with it), 2) God not being purely good, 3) God creating evil - because its the good thing to do, 4) more than one god - with some (or at least one) being evil

Why did God create such imperfect creatures? Why didn't God create perfect creatures? He did create us in his own image, right? (I tend to think that we created him in our image).

Thucydides that makes more sense, and I'd have to think about it for a while.

For the second part, I'd say God didn't "create" evil. He is a freedom giver, so He gave all men and even His angels (of which Lucifer was one) free-will. We chose to depart from His perfect will. The creators of genocide and homelessness and child abuse and rampant disease and all other terrors are creations of ours for choosing to rebel.

Dexter God could've created perfect beings. Which is a greater love though... 1. You loving your wife because you are under some "love potion number 9" spell and are constantly obedient to her and always loving, or 2. You loving you wife as a choice of the will, with numerous other options out there, you choose to make her your queen and to love her selflessly and with all your heart?

Wish I had time to still contribute to this discussion - too busy at work today though :(

bartdogg, I certainly agree with that about free will. Question is, though - did he create us in his own image? (or am I taking things too literally)

As to the creation of evil... would you say that evil has always existed then? Even when it was only God around - before he created anybody else?

The image in which we were created is not that of the flesh, but of the spirit. Our bodies are a convenient means of surviving and populating the Earth, but we aren't just bodies. We will continue to exist even after the flesh has gone, and that is what God created in his image, the spirit or soul or whatever you want to call it.

Draugnar, Yes - it always amuses me to see representations of God as an old white man. My question is more focused on the fact that we are capable of evil and God apparently/reportedly isn't. It seems that either we weren't in God's image in that way or that God is also capable of evil (not to say that he necessarily exercises that capability). It seems that it would have to be one or the other.

Draugnar I'd say you are correct.. to an extent.

We are in His image insofar as we have that "divine spark", spirit or soul or whatever you want to call it. But Biblically, the body is also just as important. This was an issue in the early church, and is often an issue today though more subtle. It's called Gnosticism and it essentially says that the soul or spirit is really the only thing that matters.

But we are also in His image insofar that our bodies somehow are the perfect containers to hold our spiritual selves. So, we are created in His image fleshly and spiritually. This is why in Heaven we will have bodies similar to ours now, just perfected.

God is an old man in the person of Jesus who "sat down at the right hand of God" and "entered bodily into heaven". Jesus was a person with a body on earth and the biblical picture is that He will have the same body in Heaven. This could start an entire trinity debate and discussion but I'll leave it there.

Dexter to you last comment I guess that God is incapable of Evil because it would destroy His character. It's an impossibility. It's like the question, can God build a boulder so large that He can't lift it? Of course he could, but it's impossible. So, of course God could commit evil but it's intrinsically (sp?) impossible.

So then we have more free will than God?

Sorry to enter the discussion so late and so randomly. =)

But remember Jesus' body, while having holes in his hands, feet, and sides, was very much different from what was up on the cross. Mary didn't even recognize him and thought he was the gardener.

Dexter you said:

"You either have: 1) a universe that has always existed (and evil with it), 2) God not being purely good, 3) God creating evil - because its the good thing to do, 4) more than one god - with some (or at least one) being evil"

You ignore a fifth possibility:
What if there is no God, but rather just you? What if good, and evil, instead of being external, are internal?

People discern good from evil by an internal sense. This is no accident. You may tell me that it is influenced from parents, society, God, or the Bible, but in the end it is in your head and is different slighly for everyone. Psychopaths see nothing wrong with killing. You may say, yes but that is them, they are insane. Insanity is not a definitive thing, it's a spectrum, and you are on it somewhere. By that measure, you morality is variable in the same way. Talk to anyone long enough and there will be some disagreement about an ethical issue.

Still, you may say that these are just different (maybe wrong) interpretations of what God has handed down. And if there is no God? What is it then? What if "God" never set right from wrong, but only created people. The people then decided and wrong for themselves.

That's an atheists view, but I am no atheist. I will continue:

You ignore a sixth possibility:
What if God was created? And this super-creator was the one that created good and evil, and God was created as a good being, with infinite power over the physical universe?

Interesting, no? You may ask, who then, created God? A big God? Perhaps, but consider this:

Perhaps God is an idea no more real than anything intangible, just as real as an alternate universe may, or may not be. Perhaps he exists only because we make him out to exist. The true creator, then, is our collective consciousness, and what if this is an actual being, made out to be the super-creator?

Sorry if that’s a bit unclear… But if you knew my ideology you might understand.

Thucydides,
Your sixth possibility is amusing - and not at all unreasonable... God is a caretaker - and surely in such a system we would never know of the "big God" - the big God would be an absent landlord who has "hired"/created our God to handle affairs of this universe. I, by the way, am an atheist and an existentialist/humanist - but, I thought maybe the best way to discuss God with religious folk would be to assume that there is a God and just theorize on what that God would be like and whether the bible could be an accurate representation of a possible God... mostly considering potential internal contradictions as well as trying to examine the philosophical underpinnings of Christian viewpoints (such as the nature and source of morality).

As far as your ideology... you were the one posing the "how do we know this is reality and that others exist" type of arguments, weren't you? If so, my take is: so what. Just as I likely will never know if there is a God because of a lack of evidence I am left to operate under an assumption. In my case, that there is no god. Through a similar logic I decide to operate under the assumption that there is an objective reality - though we never experience it without our subjective filters operating.

No, I agree...
You said so what, but the reason i think it matters is that if you believe, as I do, that there is a super-concious that is like God, but is not God, and that nothing exists, it is all in his imagination. Or my imagination. Or ours. It is all the same, all people are God and God is everyone, and I am everyone too, just none of us know it.

The reason it matters that I believe that is that everyone's religion then becomes merely a guess at the truth, just as my belief is, and I don't disparage anyone based on their view of the phsyical universe or even the theological world. It avoids getting bogged down in "atheism or theism/creation or evolution" arguments because it transcends them.