obiwan,

Are you saying you think the Allies would've lost if Eisenhower wasn't around? Was he really that brilliant a military strategist? Allied victory was more or less inevitable by 1942, before Ike was in any position of importance. If he'd never been born, somebody else would've filled those shoes. Maybe they would've been less competent and capable. Maybe more. But the end result would've been the same. As I said, I Like Ike, but I don't think the course of history weaved and bobbed in his wake. Rommel (and a lot of other people) shouldn't be up there either IMHO, for the same reason.

However, this means that I agree with you completely about Columbus. How likely was it that you could have someone else who 1) was really bad at geography and math, but 2) in spite of people pointing this out had the ability to persuade an otherwise intelligent monarch to fund an expedition that would've certainly perished in the middle of the ocean? Columbus was a figure who did change the course of history - and so far as I know, no one else at the time was trying to sail around the world at a distance several times what the naval technology of the time could reasonably support - and turn a profit at it.

@Abgemacht. Given that I nominated him, I can support my theory on Pope John Paul. John Paul is still in the process of being nominated for sainthood as there are several groups and organizations working to make sure it happens. The reason for his nomination is because like some of the other people on this list, he was one of the greatest advocates for global peace during his papal residency. He is well known in Europe for being a very active part of ending communism, both in his native Poland and throughout Europe during the Cold War. He was also a major advocate for cooperation among religions and spent many years improving relations between the Catholic church and the leaders of Judaism and Islam. Some say that in his strongest years, Islam and Catholicism could have completely rectified their differences and prevented a lot of the problems the West now has with the Middle East. That is a bit of hearsay though. Regardless, his impact around the world is well known, not just because he was a leader of one of the largest churches in the world, but because he literally traversed the world in an effort to create peace where it was needed most.

@Tolstoy, I completely disagree with you on Rommel. To suggest that he wasn't one of the most cunning and brilliant military commanders is foolish. There is some information regarding D-Day that suggests that Rommel knew the invasion was coming and that if Hitler had given him everything he needed, he could have actually won the battles at the beaches. However, by that point, Hitler was so focused on the Russian front and the concentration camps that he basically ignored Rommel's request and let the western front fall.

Thanks

@realpauldec - I didn't argue that Rommel wasn't cunning and brilliant; I agree with you there. But I would argue that the course of world history would not be significantly different if, say, Rommel had become a pacifist before the war. The Axis still would've been driven out of North Africa, and the Germans still wouldn't've repelled the landings in Normandy. Perhaps as you suggest if he'd gotten reinforcements things would've been different, but he didn't. So his talents were not employed in a way that affected historical change.

Touche, acceptable argument

Also, I think the John Brown pick is stupid. He might have been a catalyst to the situation, but there were too many factors leading up to the civil war to suggest that John Brown was that important.

+1 to realpauldc...one of many factors leading up to a civil war for one nation.

Yes, that says Top 100 Greatest/Most Important EVER...ESPECIALLY over folks from even the same nation.

I mean, what'd Lincoln ever do?
Or Thomas Jefferson?
Or Teddy Roosevelt?
Or Alexander Graham Bell (don't agree with me? Thorw your cell phone away...)
Or Orville and Wilbur Wright (no more flights cross-country for you...)
Martin Luther King (you officially no longer have a dream...)

In a Top 100 Americans list?

Yes.

Top 100 people ever, ranking with Plato and Shakespeare and Moses and Jesus and Newton?

...

No (though I WOULD put him ahead of Madonna, but that's a battle already lost...)

And yes, I'm awear that Graham Bell was mostly English and Canadian and just stopped in the US for a bit, just making a point there are are a ton more choices...

Bill Gates, even, or Steve Jobs...
Neil Armstrong?
JFK or Reagan, even...love them or hate them, they had actions that were felt world-wide and speeches that even they're detratcors must admit to being at least a tad inspirational, or at least famous and significant ("Ich bien ein Berliner!" and "Mr. Gorbachev...tear down this wall!")

Do you guys just nominate people to appear "clever". I have only heard of about half this list. I accept that people can be wonderful without being well known (take the unknown soldier) but some of these nominations must have come from the pretentious.

Hammurabi _ never heard of him/her
Moses - happen to be around when a natural phernominom happened
Homer - deserves some consideration
Sun Tzu - who?
Confucius - writer of future cookie slogans
Socrates - deserves consideration
Plato - deserves consideration
Aristotle - deserves consideration
Alexander the Great - never killed anyone!
Euclid - Who?
Caesar - good play
Augustus - Just because he is named after a month
Jesus - quite good
Trajan - Who?
Mohammed - has some support
Xuanzong - who?
Athelstan the Glorious - Who?
William the Conqueror - Little b'tard who got a lucky shot in.
Richard I - never killed anyone, faught when war was gentlemanly
Gengis Khan - Never killed anyone.
Edward I - Why?
Marco Polo - mint guy, worth consideration.
Edward III - why?
Henry V - why - another guy who lucked into a birth"right"
Babur - Who?
Leonardo Da Vinci - worth consideration
Michaelangelo - took too long according to his employers
Copernicus - woth considering
Martin Luther -
Galileo Galilei - worth considering
Elizabeth I - lucky birth"right"
Shakespeare - if he actually wrote everything then he is worth considering
Isaac Newton - all round good guy
William III - why?
Zumbi - Who?
William Penn - Who?
Rousseau - Who?
Robespierre - Who?
Adam Smith - Oh yes, let's thanks him for Thatcher!
Benjamin Franklin - Why?
Washington - worth considering
John Marshall - Who?
Mozart - If you like that thing
Napoleon Bonaparte - never killed anyone!
Carl Friedrich Gauss - Who?
Shaka Zulu - never killed anyone!
Charles Darwin - alround good guy
Sitting Bull - helped save his nation
Friedrich Nietzsche - Who?
Nikola Tesla - Who?
Henry Ford - Helped polute the planet
Marie Curie - worth considering
Karl Marx - was wrong
Fydor Dyostoevsky - who?
Gandhi - helped avoid any bloodshed during partition (not)
Vladimir Lenin - why?
Winston Churchill - worth considering
Pablo Picasso - artwork for people with more money than sense
Albert Einstein - worth considering
Alexander Fleming - worth considering
Ernest Hemmingway - Why?
Francisco Franco _ Who?
Franklin Delano Roosevelt - Why?
Adolph Hitler - you're joking
Erwin Rommel - never killed anyone
Josef Stalin - never killed anyone
Salvador Dali - if you like that sort of thing
Augusto Pinochet - Surely there are better mass murderers?
William Burroughs - Who?
Nelson Mandela - Terrorist
Pope John Paul II - Helped prevent the spread of Aids across a whole contenant
Arthur C. Clarke - Worth considering
Madonna - great tits.

vivianne, me, roberto, luis, mayte, carmen, amelia

Pablo Picasso - artwork for people with more money than sense
Madonna - great tits.
hahahahahah

I can't tell if maniac is joking or if he's actually that clueless.

neither can I, realpaul. Neither can I.

I know I can fix a lot of those "who??" though

The real issue is this. Here was the qualification for getting on the list:

" "Great" can be any combination of importance, influence, and ***personal feeling*** for the person, can even be "evil" people"

With that, it becomes impossible to justify anyone not being worthy of the list.

Robert Zimmerman?

@Realpauldec & OlympicTorch - I really am clueless

@Maniac: Point of information: the month was named after Augustus as was July after Julius. It counts to be a Caesar, huh?

J. Robert Oppenheimer?

18th Century BC:
Hammurabi

13th Century BC:
Moses

8th Century BC:
Homer

6th Century BC:
Confucius
Sun Tzu

5th Century BC:
Socrates
Plato

4th Century BC:
Aristotle
Alexander the Great
Euclid

1st Century BC:
Caesar
Augustus
Jesus

1st Century AD:
Trajan

6th Century AD:
Mohammed

7th Century AD:
Xuanzong

9th Century AD:
Athelstan the Glorious

11th Century AD:
William the Conqueror

12th Century AD:
Richard I
Gengis Khan

13th Century:
Edward I
Marco Polo

14th Century:
Edward III
Henry V

15th Century:
Babur
Leonardo Da Vinci
Michaelangelo
Copernicus
Martin Luther

16th Century:
Galileo Galilei
Elizabeth I
Shakespeare

17th Century:
Isaac Newton
William III
William Penn
Zumbi

18th Century:
Rousseau
Robespierre
Adam Smith
Benjamin Franklin
Washington
John Marshall
Mozart
Napoleon Bonaparte
Carl Friedrich Gauss
Shaka Zulu

19th Century:
Charles Darwin
Sitting Bull
Friedrich Nietzsche
Nikola Tesla
Henry Ford
Marie Curie
Karl Marx
Fydor Dyostoevsky
Gandhi
Vladimir Lenin
Winston Churchill
Pablo Picasso
Albert Einstein
Alexander Fleming
Ernest Hemingway
Francisco Franco
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Adolph Hitler
Erwin Rommel
Josef Stalin

20th Century:
Salvador Dali
Augusto Pinochet
William Burroughs
Nelson Mandela
Pope John Paul II
Arthur C. Clarke
Madonna


Please note the above guidelines are based on year of birth.

Thx Timur for your point of info

Maniac’s Wonderful 100: Partly because I am genuinely clueless about some people on the ‘official’ list and partly because I think their celebrity is over-rated.

1 My Mum – for everything I am
= My Dad – ditto
= My daughter and 2 sons – no explanation needed
= My brother Alan (deceased) for always smiling
= My sister Sally for looking after me when I was younger, keeping me safe from the bullies
= My sister Dawn – always good for a laugh and to share a film with
= My brother David – for always being around and there when you need him
= My sister Lynda – for believing in me
= Mrs Hamilton, my first primary school teacher – how one person can show so much love to her charges was incredible
= Mr Newman & Mr Riddle – my maths teachers in secondary school for opening my eyes
= Mr Dainty – my business studies teacher for making me look at things again
= Name unknown – my speech therapist (I couldn’t speak ‘till I was seven)
= Names unknown – doctors and nurses who have patched me up and cured me of childhood illnesses
= Gary King – my first employer for letting me experiment
= Names unknown – doctors and nurses / midwifes that have patched up my nearest and dearest – assisted in birth of my kids.etc
= my mum’s mum for some happy memories
= my dad’s dad for being unique
= various uncles and aunts for presents and cards
= names forgotten – college lecturers for getting m through
= the unknown soldier – for everything he represents
= the ordinary people of London, Birmingham and Coventry during the second world war, for hanging on in there.
= Banksey – for making me think
= Billy Braggs – for some good tunes
= Kestas – for helping me waste away a pile of hours
= the police for putting themselves in harms way
= (to be continued….)


I can see many famous soldiers on the official list, but should any of them rank above the unknown soldier? Does Ghandi rank above some unknown policeman who puts himself between a women and her violent husband? Some scientist are great but many owe everything to an father/mother/aunt who encouraged them or gave them a telescope. I see many great thinkers and philosophers on the list (maybe because obi had something to do with the preparation) but didn’t each of them have teachers whose names have been lost to history.

My wonderful hundred will probably never have an entry in wikipedia, but I suspect the people who have really shaped each of your lives, won’t appear there either.

@ Timur

robert zimmerman is bob dylan. excellent call. maybe the greatest poet of the 20th century.

So, 27 spots left...how to fill those...

lol, duh, Ronald Reagan.

also, on the above, Hitler and Stalin would both be in the 20th Century, not the 19th.

Thomas Cochrane! The greatest man who ever lived! Do it!

(I could add more short sentences with exclamation marks at the end if it will help...)

Isambard Kingdom Brunel, greatest Engineer of his time, and voted #2 in the BBC's Greatest Briton ever behind Winston Churchill. He designed and built a high speed link between London & New York, including the railway, the stations, the bridges, tunnels, and viaduct on the Great Western rail route to Bristol, And then designed an built the Great Western steam ship to carry passengers over the atlantic! He also desgned tunnels, dockyards and just about anything else thats left. The boy did good...