Do hockey players warm up to Friday Night Remix?

Yes, it is a larger social problem. But what is promoting it more than football. Nothing else has that scope and nothing else has a problem so rampant.

Every single last field where there are celebrities? What the fuck do you mean by this and prove it.

What's your point in all of this? That Putin and I are wrong to criticize you for supporting a misogynistic organization?

"There's no difference - both will degrade women's equality in a drastic fashion if unchecked."

My argument is that the former degrades women as well as men, it degrades everyone, whereas the latter is specifically targeting women, hence why I say the former isn't "anti-women" because, frankly, it's broader than that, it's anti-modern gender identity and equality PERIOD, whereas the latter IS explicitly men attacking women and men exclusively attacking women and therefore is, categorically, "anti-woman."

It is an issue Putin - Patrick Roy and Semyen Valramov come to mind.

If you're going to be all on this head trauma thing you need to recognize the problem in hockey. There are about 1-2 players on every NHL team who expose themselves to probably more brain damage per season than the average NFL player.

Not to mention the other players who have collisions with each other at speeds NFL players cannot reach.

How does men objectifying women "degrade men"? It's an issue that men are propagating that affects women.

"Do hockey players warm up to Friday Night Remix?"

I don't know what that is, nor do I see how a remix is relevant...? O.o

"But what is promoting it more than football. Nothing else has that scope and nothing else has a problem so rampant."

I again point to movie stars and their sex-based debaucheries...
Plenty of businessmen as well...
Other sports...

These all promote that larger social problem.

I'd argue football's just more visible.

"Every single last field where there are celebrities? What the fuck do you mean by this and prove it."

Do I really need to start listing rap sheets for TV and film stars, rappers, singers, other athletes, business tycoons, etc.?

"What's your point in all of this? That Putin and I are wrong to criticize you for supporting a misogynistic organization?"

My point is that the misogyny is a disease outside of football infecting it, RATHER THAN a disease INHERENT in football, as Putin stages things to be.

That if you fix the lager social issues, football would likewise be fixed, because it's the social issues making football players sexist, not the game itself.

"I'm saying that most NFL players are good morally, and your counter is something that has nothing to do with morality."

Morality is irrelevant. CTE leads to violent behavior, yes or no? You taunted me about the link between football and violence. Do you deny that head trauma increases violent behavior?

If so then your crap about morality is irrelevant. The point is that playing football increases the likelihood that you will become violent in general. Just like smoking increases the risk of lung cancer.

"Well, you seem to hate tossing out "correlation = causation" so I suppose by your logic, the fact that so many movie stars end up in prison MUST mean that its the movie business that causes it to an extent..."

No, it doesn't. Show me how acting is linked to domestic violence. Does acting cause brain injury? You are once again, trivializing and dismissing the problem of head trauma and clinging to whatever examples you can find to deflect attention away from football.

"I think the NFL DOES have a problem,"

No you don't. You've repeatedly said it is no worse than anything else.

"I don't think the game itself is any more anti-woman than other contact sports,"

Which contradicts your claim that you think the NFL has a problem.

"Most NFL players are not monsters, despite how you unfairly you wish to view them,"

You want to play up this 'monster' thing. I feel sorry for a lot of football players. You consider them objects for your entertainment, and care nothing about their welfare. So long as you're entertained, they can go on beating their brains in, destroying their memories, and destroying their families. You think the people who commit violence are just bad apples, not a symptom of a wider problem of head trauma.

"I again point to movie stars and their sex-based debaucheries..."

Sex-based debaucheries? Are you complaining about actual violence or sex at this point?

You keep 'pointing' and I see no actual data to back up any of this nonsense. It's just pure deflection.

"How does men objectifying women "degrade men"? It's an issue that men are propagating that affects women."

1. Because, as that reduces women to meat, it likewise reduces men to slobbering unruly dogs...don't get me wrong, women still have it a million times worse when it comes to objectification, I'm just saying that it harms the way men view other men and themselves as well.

2. I'm speaking more broadly here about how not living up to that macho-man stereotype that clods like Incognito and male athletes across all sports perpetuate is harmful to men's psyches.

Obi - I'm not siding with Al on his stuff, but the one thing I will agree with him on is that you're White Knighting the shit out of this topic, and have done so on other topics as well.

You are referring the causes as the symptoms. Dig deeper here Obi.

"Sex-based debaucheries? Are you complaining about actual violence or sex at this point?"

Actual violence...you don't think movie stars are guilty of sexual assault and domestic abuse as well?

"You keep 'pointing' and I see no actual data to back up any of this nonsense. It's just pure deflection."

Given that it's on the news every other night, someone getting arrested for something, I AGAIN ask if I really need to give a full rundown of every movie star that's ever been arrested ever for domestic abuse or sexual assault, and what that would prove?

My point is that this sort of behavior isn't limited to the NFL, and that it's caused by larger social forces, so you get the Chris Browns and Woody Allens of the world abusing and accosting women out there right along with the Ray Rices and Greg Hardys.

"I'm not siding with Al on his stuff, but the one thing I will agree with him on is that you're White Knighting the shit out of this topic, and have done so on other topics as well."

How can I approach this in a way that you'd prefer, then?

"You are referring the causes as the symptoms. Dig deeper here Obi."

If you're asking me what the social causes are, if not these individual sports and pursuits, I'll get put the "P-word" in a hurry, since that's frankly what I'd argue is still the biggest cause of inequality and a lot of the actions taken against women...

That's probably a different argument that we don't need to get into right now. There is correlation between poverty and violent crime. But I think saying one causes the other is a very, very dangerous thing to say.

The NFL causes violence in the men it employs as well as those it influences.

And I'd add that as Patriarchy--there, I said it--was not invented by the NFL in 1920, nor is the NFL the biggest purveyor and maintainer of that status quo of inequality and unfairness...again...

Fix THAT, and I'm willing to bet every last copy of Shakespeare I own that we wouldn't be having NFL players, hockey players, movie stars, rappers, or stars of any such field committing the domestic, anti-woman crimes to such a degree as has become the epidemic we see today.

Patriarchy poisons everything, and that includes football...

Get rid of Patriarchy, and we could all sit down together and enjoy the 49ers, free of the Ray McDonalds of the world, build a 30-7 halftime lead over the Eagles on Sunday, only to blow their 3rd halftime lead and game in as many weeks.

It isn't football, or even sports, it's Patriarchy.

".you don't think movie stars are guilty of sexual assault and domestic abuse as well?"

I don't know. I'm sure there are some. I'm not going to take your word for it that the NFL deserves a pass because people in film supposedly do it "every other night".

Just looking at the highest grossing actors, can't see any who have this issue. Can you name some? Surely this should be easy as it occurs "every other day".

And you still haven't addressed my repeated question about brain trauma and acting.

On the violence/CTE thing--

I agree that's a problem and must be fixed...in football and other sports

I also think it's a problem that CAN be fixed, though, and that it's not the reason that these kinds of crimes persist, because even if you wanted to argue the trauma angle, I'd argue it's the Patriarchal ideology that makes (to shift gears just a little) people like Adrian Peterson think it's OK to beat his son with a switch until the 4-year old son has bruises and cuts all over his body.

That's a father--a patriarch--feeling that an old patriarch-based system entitles him to use such force to "correct" his son's behavior.

Is anyone willing to bet that same sick idea of "correcting behavior" via patriarchal violence is what prompted any of NFL players to strike their wives or girlfriends?

Or rather acting and violence. With football and violence - we have a causal mechanism - brain trauma. Where is it with acting?

With acting/singing...money+influence of alcohol/drugs/pick your cliche poison, as a mechanism that contributes to things?

Again, Chris Brown, Woody Allen (for sexual abuse)...Mel Gibson...

http://www.ranker.com/list/celebrities-charged-with-domestic-abuse/celebrity-lists

As another issue, Obiwan. You claim there is no anti-woman culture in the NFL, but what about the treatment of cheerleaders? Surely the degrading "tests" and other terrible treatment warrants your condemnation and can't be brushed away.

http://www.latimes.com/local/abcarian/la-me-ra-buffalo-bills-cheerleader-lawsuit-20140424-story.html#page=1

But I've already pointed out that domestic violence among the very rich is much lower than the general population, so that can't be it.

Sigh, I suppose its just something you need to learn obi. Putin and Lando have managed to defend women in this thread without going White Knight/SJW on men.

"I also think it's a problem that CAN be fixed"

How? How do you play the sport without beating your brains in?

Yes, most of the people on this list you've provided, which has been broadened to all celebrities, thanks for conflating actors with all celebrities, have substance abuse problems.

But NFL players can't have substance abuse problems, because as we've seen with that guy Gordon from the Browns, substance abuse is punished severely. So the NFL manages to have these high rates of violence without people having the excuse of addiction.

"That's a father--a patriarch--feeling that an old patriarch-based system entitles him to use such force to "correct" his son's behavior."

So we should all "fight patriarchy" by watching and cheering on football!?

You're making less sense by the minute.

"So we should all "fight patriarchy" by watching and cheering on football!?"

My point is that, as I said earlier, EV-ER-Y-THING is poisoned by Patriarchy in a social sense...

In the same way that, if you're looking to read an author at least, oh, 1880 or before or so, chances are, you're gonna get some sexism or Antisemitism or bigotry or class snobbishness or *insert whole range of awfulness here.*

You cheer on hockey and soccer players--you don't think they're poisoned by Patriarchy, too? No hockey player or soccer player has done this?

Oh, right.

You like those sports, and they're less visible in the US than the NFL, so you'll make an exception for the sports you like, just not the ones you don't.

"How? How do you play the sport without beating your brains in?"

Better protective gear, for one, which they're working on developing...

Rules changes to eliminate as much as possible the kind of hits (helmet to helmet or otherwise) which could increase the risk of CTE...

Teaching kids (as NFL-sponsored Pop Warner leagues now do) to aim tackles at the torso region and NOT the head, as previous generations did...

Lots of ways...if you're not closed-minded and just hate the game.

"Putin and Lando have managed to defend women in this thread without going White Knight/SJW on men."

I again don't know what you mean by that or what SJW stand for, so, yeah...probably the best way to get me to not do something I'm not aware of doing is to first clearly explain what that thing is...

You're grasping for straws. As I said already, CTE is twice as high for football than these other sports. Never once claimed no other segment of society has committed domestic violence, only have pointed out that the problem in football is disproportionate.

But, you'll say anything to deflect away from football.

And you still haven't addressed the cheerleader question.

"In the same way that, if you're looking to read an author at least, oh, 1880 or before or so, chances are, you're gonna get some sexism or Antisemitism or bigotry or class snobbishness or *insert whole range of awfulness here.*"

You happily embrace and adore the work of DH Lawrence, including and especially his most offensive texts, is your excuse for that that you can't be bothered to support non-horrible literature because patriarchy absolves you?