In the two companies I run, we have a similar policy. We don't count sick days or vacation time. Employees take what they want, when they want it.

For vacations, we don't explicitly say "when they are up to date on their projects," but that's basically how it works. "100% up to date" doesn't mean done. It means, given the overall plans for the project are where they should be. And because people plan their projects around their vacations, it means that the project is where it should be so they can go enjoy their vacation.

In our 26 years of business, this has worked perfectly. Some folks take 6 weeks a year, in 1 or 2 week chunks. Others take their time by working four day weeks throughout the summer.

We treat everyone as responsible adults and they've disappointed us. Nobody has ever abused the privilege.

So, if you worked for me, I'd trust you to do right by the job. Trusting the work force doesn't sound Dickensian to me.

6 weeks sounds like a pretty good deal.

The folks who have taken 6 weeks often do work on some of their vacation time. For example, one of my folks -- a stats guy who analyzed our research data -- would ski all day and then run his models at night. He'd come up with some epiphanies while on the slope, then modify the models after dinner and let them run during the evening.

I always looked forward to his skiing trips because we'd end up with some of our most brilliant research outcomes from them.

"The folks who have taken 6 weeks often do work on some of their vacation time."

Then it's not vacation time.

Move along, nothing to see here.

Vacation day, sick leave, and personal business are just book keeping divisions on how time from work is recorded. It matters more in the US because job contracts specify how much and if it is paid time with vacation time usually increasing the longer you stay with a company.

Hourly workers get extra pay if they exceed certain hours per week levels which is why there have been lawsuits against companies that didn't count time that was work related, but the companies claimed "occurred" before and after work.

Putin, it's up to the individual. We don't demand or expect work when they are taking their time off. It's just how they choose to use their time.

Work off the clock is illegal in civilized places of work.

And anyway it's besides the point. If someone is working they are not on vacation.

I'm pretty sure Jmspool just self-reported labor law violations.

http://www.flsa.com/faq.html

A. The courts have held that work time under the FLSA includes all time spent performing job-related activities which (a) genuinely benefit the employer, (b) which the employer "knows or has reason to believe" are being performed by an employee, and (c) which the employer does not prohibit the employee from performing. These can include activities performed during "off-the-clock" time, at the job site or elsewhere, whether "voluntary" or not.

Courts have awarded FLSA damages for "off-the-clock" time spent by employees maintaining equipment, staying late after normal shifts without "putting in" for overtime, doing job-related paperwork "at home," making and responding to job-related telephone calls, working through meal periods, and many other activities. Employees sometimes underestimate the amount of "off the clock" time they spend performing compensable tasks.

Any other members of our resident bourgeoisie want to brag about how they abuse their employees?

"If someone is working they are not on vacation."

Not true, I work on vacation all the time. And I like my vacations.

Then it's not a vacation.

Putin, all of our employees are considered "exempt" under FLSA rules, so no crimes here.

This would be a great idea if employees had to take 4 weeks off a year and then had the option to take further time off when they liked.

If you want smug try Jeremy Kyle or Piers Morgan .... they take it to another level

Inspiration strikes when it strikes, and sometimes that's when I'm on vacation, or at home at 2am, etc. It's not a FLSA violation for an employer to have a flexible schedule policy. I get paid for every hour I work, since a few extra hours on a project at home turns into a shorter day later that week or the next. And it means I don't feel guilty when I get into an off-topic conversation in the office, or have to run home at lunch to let the dog out.

Now, I deeply respect the history behind the FLSA, and the excesses that can easily occur in non-unionized shops, particularly in the private sector. But I also know enough law to know that the cases where damages are awarded are the ones where an abusive or coercive relationships are at play, not ones where professionals with significant discretion in how they get their work done decide to use that discretion.

Branson may well, rightly, find himself on the wrong side of that line some day, but my bet would be that jmspool, also rightly, won't.

Jmspool, what's the name of your said company?

Sandgoose, I have 2 companies:
User Interface Engineering (uie.com)
Center Centre (centercentre.com)

JaimeR: You are correct. We are well within any FLSA constraints. Our employees are paid for every moment they are working and receive well above the norm of vacation and sick leave. They are a professional workforce that loves what they do.

The place I work is similar. I get 5 weeks a year (I've worked there for three) and I have pretty good flexibility. No vacation allowed February to April but that's fine.

As for work on vacation, if you like what you do it isn't strange or wrong. I mean, if I go on a two week vacation I probably WANT to bring work with me.

Putin don't be mad because you aren't as happy with what you do as the people who work for jmspool are.

Innovative HR practices are important and I think Jamie t misinterpreted Dick Branson here.

The workforce is fundamentally transforming due to younger generations whose lifestyles don't fit into the traditional 9-5 paradigm, especially now that you can essentially work from anywhere and still meet productivity requirements. The goal shouldn't be to work for work's sake, it should be meeting deadlines and achieving the same level of productivity while still having a work/life balance that is amenable to flexible time off. It does place a great deal of responsibility on the worker, but if he or she is able to work such a schedule successfully, there's no reason why employees shouldn't be able to be flexible and have extra time off when you want.

In Denmark white collar workers have the right to 6 weeks vacation and Holidays off. If we are sick we don't go to work, and the same goes if our kids are sick for the 1st (and 2nd) day of their sickness. Most people in this kinda of jobs also have flex-time. So work put in equals time off, then the work allows for it.

Bransons words can be good or bad for the employees. It works in situations where the amount of work is lower that an years work. It doesn't work if the amount of work is higher. That way you don't get time of. And I guess it does goes for the stewardess in Virgin Air and other service jobs like that.

I think you need to have minimum standards in place so everybody can before to there best and have a good life but if people can find a better solution for themselves and the company which doesn't conflict with the standard, then go a head. It makes for a much better workplace for both parties when both sides shows flexibility.

My gf has a job where she has to account for every minute of her day and it sounds terrible. True, she never has to work at nights, weekends, or on vacation, but on the other hand, if she shows up late due to traffic, she has to stay late and if she has to sit in her office, even when there's no work.

Yeah, I have to work at night or on weekends for a few hours, but I also can leave work during the day when I need to. I'm judged by the quality of my work, not by the amount of time I sit at my desk. Maybe that doesn't work for some people, but I much prefer it.

I'm not exactly a 'real' worker of course but apart from school and dinner if I eat what my parents cook, I have no set times for anything long-term. I plan teaching a kid maths a week ahead, but other than that, I can kind of do whatever I want when I want, and I really like that.

Whenever I have to do something specific at a specific time, I don't have a choice and I don't like that. I guess it makes me feel just a tiny bit less alive?

Commitments are part of life.

Commitments go both ways - employers that take, take, take don't deserve committed employees.

eat the rich

Aren't the rich a bit gamey?

"Whenever I have to do something specific at a specific time, I don't have a choice and I don't like that. I guess it makes me feel just a tiny bit less alive?"

It's called having responsibilities.

"Putin, all of our employees are considered "exempt" under FLSA rules, so no crimes here."

Small businesses once again getting away with working their employees without paying them.

"They are a professional workforce that loves what they do."

And they're apparently doormats who are willing to work for free.

"I'm judged by the quality of my work, not by the amount of time I sit at my desk. Maybe that doesn't work for some people, but I much prefer it."

Salaried workers are begging to be abused.

Are there any working class people here whatsoever?

This place lacks diversity in more ways than one.

"Small businesses once again getting away with working their employees without paying them."
"And they're apparently doormats who are willing to work for free."
Huh! Putin is one of jms' employees. Who knew?! Jms, did you know this?

Shocking that there would be jobs out there where pay is based on productivity, not the amount of hours spent blankly looking at a computer screen.

But we're not switching to piecework are we?

So how are people being paid by "productivity" exactly?

Those poor underpaid engineers.

The folks who work for me are awesomely talented. They could easily get a higher-paying job at any number of companies. They stay because we have a good team, which is doing some great work, in a wonderfully supportive culture.

I guess you could look and say that we're somehow abusing salaried workers and that we're somehow they are just doormats willing to work for free. But, if they believed that, they'd be out of here in a heartbeat. Yet, in 26 years of business, the team has stuck together and done great work. I'm proud of them and humbled by getting to work with them.

Got no time for Diplomacy, yeah
I'm working all the time...
Seems to me I could live my life
A lot better than I think I am...

I want so badly to agree with Putin here, but I'm in an interesting position.

I've spent the majority of my life working for a shitty hourly wage, or as a grad student for a salary that averages to something near a shitty hourly wage. I know that my former employers are exploitative scum - I was a wage slave for years.

However, now that I'm on the cusp of graduation from my PhD program, I'm poised to enter the industrial sector and have just landed a job as a salaried engineer, and all of these middle class concerns (vacation time, work-to-life ratio, etc.) are really coming to the forefront for me.

On the one hand, I'm going to be earning a hell of a lot more than I ever have before, and with a large and reputable company, so I'm extraordinarily grateful for the opportunity. That being said, I'm curious about (and somewhat dreading) the question of just how much my status as a company man will force me to sacrifice. As I begin my professional career, am I just graduating to a new level of exploitation, or can the middle class still receive a fair shake?

#somewhatterrifying

If you're good at what you do people have to treat you fairly otherwise you will leave and it will cost them. Unless you work in basic manual labour, you can always distinguish yourself by skill. If you do that, your life will be fine if you want it to be.

"Salaried workers are begging to be abused."

I'm a little confused. Are you saying I'm being abused and don't realize it?

Working class? I guess I count, now. I work at a restaurant and as a landscaper, I make poverty wages.

However I also decidedly don't count, because my only bills are Internet, health insurance, utilities, rent, groceries, and phone. I don't have any dependents or a car or a health issue, and my parents are wealthy. But I ain't no salary worker lol

"It's called having responsibilities."

I take up all kinds of responsibilities. Same counts for commitments. I earn a fair bit of money (once I get paid lol) creating websites, I help people by, for example, helping them to pass the schoolyear as I did last year and in essence I'm always willing to help pretty much everyone. There's also stuff like homework (school is essentially a full time job now since I've picked my classes quite ambitiously, so..). I commit to those things.

I don't do them at a set time though. Why? Possibilities. Need my help? Any time. For real. Party? Any time works for me. I'm not in the mood to do something? I'll do it later.

I like working. Not always though. I have a lot of flexibility that allows me to do my work whenever I feel like it while sticking to all my responsibilities and commitments.

Unfortunately, there aren't too many jobs out there where you can do whatever you want whenever you want. Even jobs that offer an extreme amount of flexibility require you to engage in some activities that aren't directly related to your job. There are still deadlines to meet, which means putting in more work near those deadlines, even if you have other plans. And of course, new problems pop up all the time, and that means allocating time to address those problems even if you previously expected to take that time off. This isn't even mentioning jobs that require extensive teamwork, which has its rewards but also requires you to work according to a schedule acceptable to most of the group, not just yourself.

@Steephie:

If you worked for me, say to create websites, you'd need to come up with a schedule that meets our business objectives. Once we have an agreed upon schedule, you can work as you wish on it. You can pick your own hours and as long as you're making the deadlines with quality work, we're good.

That said, we expect top quality work on aggressive deadlines. You'd need to coordinate with the rest of the (probably 6-8 person) team, all of whom have their own deadlines and schedules. It would be up to you to be available for those collaboration activities.

The work is fun and it's really challenging. And it'd definitely work. It pays well and it has great benefits.

We're not the only shop that runs this way. There are lots of us.

So, you'd get lots of flexibility to work when you feel like, but there will be a lot of work if you want to make a lot of money.

My people don't always work. They take time they need to do the things they want. For example, many have families and often leave during the day to tend to family things. No problem, as long as it is coordinated with the team in advance and the work is getting done to the agreed upon schedule.

Putin,

You're a dear lad, but I'm really getting the impression that you're taking a one-sided view of this issue, that you haven't experience working in what Americans call a *professional* environment, and that you're politicizing an issue that has more to due with changing cultural attitudes related to social class and professionalism.

Oh, and that you don't have an extensive a legal background as you think that you do.