One simple question: Is it in Israels best interest to have to compromise and agree to some of the Palestinian demands?
Objectively I don't think so.
Is it important for their international standing and reputation that they go through the motions of talks?
Yes I would say so.

So we'll have the talks, it will all go 'pear' and we'll blame it on the Palestinians, then 5 Israelis will die and about 100 Palestinians will be killed also.
Then we will be back where we started.

Here's an idea.
1) Stop supplying arms to Israel
2) Enforce the outstanding UN resolutions affecting the territories.
Just the threat of this would have the Israelis rushing to the negotiating table.

What I hate is the people who are involved that obviously don't give a flying f*** about the plight of the Palestinian people, all the political posturing and the hypocrisy is so transparent it's sickening.

Bo, in truth I wasn't trying to pull the oppressed card there, but now that I read the comment again it does sound like that so that's my fault. It just seems like we put so much attention on this describing all the graphic details when similar conflicts have always occurred, perhaps the reasoning and location were different, but conflicts none the less. Anyway, I did not mean to step on any toes and I am not actually Jewish.

The UN is neutered wrt Israel because the US, and to a large degree the UK also, will veto any motion that restrains the IDF in any real way.

Isreal is a terrorist client state of the terrorist united states.

If Israel is terrorist, the USA is certainly terrorist, the UK is terrorist, France is terrorist, and the rest of the western nations are terrorists. I can go with that, but if you go with one, you'd best go with all.

@Nigee ... stop supplying arms to the entire Middle East. You should not be apotheosizing the Palestinians; they've done nothing to earn your respect. They are simply another people to think about. Until the Palestinians don't have weaponry, there will be no peace in that region, because they've proven that they'll use what weapons they have against the Israelis, even if it's relatively "ineffective" weaponry.

And Israel has also proven that it will blow a hole in their defenses when they do. In any other non-radical situation, there would have been peace long ago, but both sides want to wipe the other out and since they both have weapons, they feel like they can do it.

Fantastic, Nigee. I think that you should check on the very same "objective" basis wether the palestinian government (and Hamas and dozens of other political/religious based movements) has an honest interest in compromise in order to get a realistic solution with Israel. Or maybe they go to the peace talks for the same reasons you stated earlier, world recognition and reputation? Both sides aren't likely to be honest, but releasing convicted murderers on Israel's part without demanding anything in return is truly a precedent.

Just to make sure I am not misunderstood: Hamas, and representatives from other parts of the palestinians aren't participating in the talkes and aren't likely to agree to any decisions that might come from them. These "talkes" are nothing but a joke as the palestinians are anything but united, and Abu Mazen's government is anything but stable and respectable by it's own people.

Respected*

"Both sides aren't likely to be honest, but releasing convicted murderers on Israel's part without demanding anything in return is truly a precedent"

It's all politics mate, mass murderers and terrorists should not be released, although in saying that sounds like some of these people have served 20 year terms in Israeli prisons and may be due to be released, they are making it look like clemency but how long do political prisoners/freedom fighters get nowadays. These may be people that have served their sentences.

If they killed someone committing their act of terror, arguably letting them out before they are dead is clemency. Life in prison for murder... Pretty normal deal.

Nigee, you're simply doing all you can to criminalize Israel. They were released at the request of Hamas. They hadn't served their sentences; they were released to make a statement that they're willing to talk. Don't try and spread lies only to serve your political stance. It makes you look stupid, bro.

I give props to Israel for letting them go. I predict, if the youth can get out form under their parents bigoted hatred of each other, that in the next 25 to 50 years, we may actually have some peace in Palestine and Israel.

"Nigee, you're simply doing all you can to criminalize Israel."

Another objective comment I see, no I'm not the one bulldozing peoples houses just because they broke a curfew, as a young Jewish man are you not ashamed of the actions of the Israeli govt, or are you just too objective ??

Nigee, I just went over the list and counted 74 out of 100 that were convicted of murdering women, children, soldiers e.t.c. Out of those who aren't convicted of murder you find such splendid examples as Samir Sarsawi, who threw a hand grenade in a crowded street in Haifa. But by a miracle no one was killed. So he wasn't convicted of murder. Surely he is someone you'd like to be your neighbour.

What needs to happen for a general peace:

Israel and the Palestinians agree to a State of Palestine based off of the 1967 lines with border swaps.

Israel withdraws from virtually all settlements, with the exception of those agreed to in the final peace agreement. These few settlements which are kept must not inhibit the continuity of the West Bank part of Palestine or its viability as an independent state.

Jerusalem is divided, but the Old City is internationalized (Israel has wildly expanded the municipal boundaries of Jerusalem, the part in real contention is much smaller than the modern city).

Palestinian refugees have no right of return to Israel, but an internationally supervised process will exist to monetarily compensate them for lost property.

Palestinian State is demilitarized, with Jordan responsible for its defense.

All Arab states must recognize Israel as they would any other country.

Palestinian refugees are made citizens of the country of their birth or long established residence (right now only Jordan does so, Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria, and elsewhere are stateless).

The Golan Heights is returned to Syria, but demilitarized and made into a national park Israelis can live in and enter freely (obviously not possible till the civil war is resolved).


Is this so crazy? So hard to do, really? The stumbling blocks are extremists who either want Israel to have all the land or extremists who want to destroy Israel and replace it with an Arab state from the river to the sea. Neither is going to happen. The sooner a lasting agreement is reached the better for both sides, but lots of people (including those on this forum) don't seem to realize that.

@Hot - so why are they being released?
It's not like the Israelis to allow the Palestinians to dictate who gets released and when, I get the feeling there may be some facts behind this that the general public are blissfully unaware of. On the face of it the decision to release some of these people seems to be a bit irresponsible, you can be sure the Israelis are not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts.

I'm buying into the 'Invictus Plan' ..... that works for me.

Hmm I'm looking at what Invictus said and I'm guessing that if you proposed this to both sides, the Palestinians will be more inclined to accept it than the Israelis are. Not saying I'm on either side, I'm just saying that that's what I think are their respective responses.

http://cifwatch.com/2011/01/23/palestine-papers-guardians-own-documents-demonstate-veracity-of-israeli-version-of-2008-offer-a-contiguous-palestinian-state-with-captial-in-jerusalem/

It's more or less already been proposed, at least the parts explicitly dealing with a Palestinian state. By the Israelis.

Hi again Nigee. First of all - I live in Israel. Not only that, I live 3 kilometers from Jerusalem. Not only that, but it's behind the "green border". In other words - I live in what you call a settlement. Saying all that - I want to address what Invictus had said: If there was a strong palestinian government which would forward not only a border-agreement but would also fight to change the cultural differences and try to ensure a cultural cooperation between the two nations (jews and arabs, yes?) - I would beleive in it's honesty and give the keys of my own house to the closest palestinian I can find. Not because I'm so kind or ethical, but because I spent most of my life with a gun and I would really prefer true and honest peace to any piece of land. I know other settlers who would agree with me openly and many other who might agree silently. But as long as the palestinians are divided and the vast majority (look for palestinian made polls regarding accepting Israel, exchanging land according to population and the refugees's right of return) of the people are against permanent agreements which will normalize the situation as it is or close to it, nothing is likely to change and any agreement with Abu Mazen doesn't worth more then a piece of paper. Seriously, in the place I live in it's very close to what the wild west once was. About a year ago I was driving in the highway not far from my house and suddenly I saw 4-5 arabs with crowbars beating the shit of some car which pulled over. I stopped the car, went out with my gun in hand. When the arabs saw me they started shouting "Not jews, we don't hit jews!" and continued killing whoever was there. In every arab village you have several hamulas (families) who are in charge of things. Theoretically, they are under the palestinian law. Practically - nobody opens a business or builds a house without their authorization. You guys ask about peace - my village lives in peace for about 15 years. How? We are in good connections with the tribe leaders around us. They don't give us hard time and we don't do it either. Usually when something unusual happens the terrorists are not even local but come from a far. On personal basis I know many arabs. We work together, we drink cofee together, we speak one to other and many of them are really ok. But when they are in a community the talk is completely different. They are much more aggressive and check your attention and attitude all the time.
Saying all that - IF the situation was different and we were to be sure that a true peace may be acheived by a land exchange agreement - many would go for it. Iv'e already been to 2 wars and I had enough.

I'm with you on all of your proposal above, Invictus.

Have you read Jimmy Carter's "Peace, not Apartheid"? An excellent analysis of the middle east/Palestine/Israel dynamic.

It comes down to this. Is the status quo tolerable? I, and many others, say no. You, and a smaller but still significant amount with legitimate points, say yes.

The longer the occupation and settlement construction go on the harder it will be to establish the only thing that will lead to a lasting peace. That one thing is a viable Palestinian state living in peace next to Israel.

You say you've already been to two wars, but if Israel continues to keep things the way they are there may be a third war, and I don't have to tell you that Israel cannot ever afford to lose a war, for reasons that should be obvious to all. Even if interstate peace is maintained and terrorism is kept under control, the international isolation of Israel will get stronger and stronger if it continues the sorts of policies it currently has in the West Bank. All it would take is the election of a non-sympathetic president here in America for Israel to have a real crisis, maybe even being forced to go back to the Green Line and letting there be a right of return for refugees. I'm not saying that's likely, but without American protection at the UN and the steady stream of supply and support from the United States Israel would have a much harder time carrying on. Current policies imperil that support, even from American Jews.

Allowing a Palestinian state now will blunt all sane criticism of Israel forever, but continuing the occupation just sets the stage for crises down the road that will be extremely challenging for Israel.

To Hot Fuzz, obviously.

And no, I have not read Jimmy Carter's books. I avoid anyone who really makes the apartheid comparison, since it's wholly unfitting to how Israel behaves in Israel proper and is often just a Trojan horse for anti-Zionist and even antisemitic groups to get into the mainstream discussion. Also I don't want to give Jimmy Carter money.

@Nigee...

""Nigee, you're simply doing all you can to criminalize Israel."

Another objective comment I see, no I'm not the one bulldozing peoples houses just because they broke a curfew, as a young Jewish man are you not ashamed of the actions of the Israeli govt, or are you just too objective ??"

That entire post is criminalizing Israel. You fail to recognize the legal violations on both ends and instead focus only on the side you choose not to like. It's pathetic and obvious. You then go on to attack me and I don't really know why. I've clearly acknowledged wrongs committed by the Israeli government throughout this thread. All I ask you to do is acknowledge wrongs committed by the Palestinian government body as well and you're evidently too biased to do so.

And, just for fun: your clear lack of information on the released prisoners is astounding when you come here acting like you know what you're talking about.

@Invictus ... that is a beautiful plan. I hope it works. The Golan Heights part may be a stretch, though, I'm afraid, especially with the turmoil in Syria. I wouldn't trust Syria with their potential new or old government with new territory at this point.

By the way, Obama would very likely be that unsympathetic leader in the USA if it weren't for Congress. Just sayin. Hillary coming into office may do the job, I don't know her well enough to say though.

@Hot Fuzz ... I lived two months in Israel two summers ago with someone who was at that time a tank commander in the IDF. We lived in Ramat HaSharon, and though we weren't really close to the border, we spent a lot of time in the West Bank and encountered the same kind of thing. It was really appalling. At the same time, their lifestyle (the refugees and other Arabs, that is) was clearly created by the settlement expansion, in a way reversely proportionate to suburb flight here in the USA. It would be fixed, or at least partially remedied, by moving out of those settlements and creating a clear border.

"By the way, Obama would very likely be that unsympathetic leader in the USA if it weren't for Congress. Just sayin. Hillary coming into office may do the job, I don't know her well enough to say though."

Well, that's not quite true. He's just not as staunchly uncritical as recent presidents. The first George Bush made a huge stink about the illegitimacy of settlement construction, far more serious than Obama's first term blunder over demanding construction just stop before talks begin. Hillary would probably be just about as uncritically supportive as any contemporary Republican would. I'm talking about twenty years or so down the line. What happens when an American president starts talking like a European prime minister? That very well could happen eventually.

Yes, it certainly could, but I still don't think that Congress any time soon will let an American President put the kind of pressure on Israel that Europe has in the past couple of years. Netanyahu doesn't have the brains in him to do anything like what you and I both support in terms of a demilitarized Palestinian state, though, and I highly doubt that the Palestinians would agree to demilitarize unless they really change their focus.

The status quo is tolerable when compared to what is expected to happen once we simply give away the western bank. Give it for what? For a piece of paper? Those who see us an enemy will continue and try to destroy us and it will be much easier for them to do so. For example, you have to have a relatively complicated missile to reach to Tel Aviv from Gaza. But you only need a mortar to strike major Israely cities from the western bank. Just as the withdraw from Sinai and Gaza didn't bring any change in the arab point of view - why should the western bank make things differently? The continueous unacceptance of 99% of all arab communities to perceive Israel as a home to jews is astounding. A very good example for it is the follwing fact: How many Israely left wing movements that set the creation of palestine are there? I can count over 20 without too much thinking. And how many arab movements are there that are working in the arab communities and are teaching jewish right to live in their own land? be it 48, 67, anything? the answer is zero.
So, as long as there isn't any serious wish on the palestinian side any peacful solution will not be possible. First because Abu Mazen will never sign any paper that will contradict the beleifs of his own people, and second - what kind of "peace" will it be if he does sign it?
Lets say Israel signed the peace treaty and everything is "great". Hundreds of thousands of jews were removed from the western bank and were placed in Caravans. Awsome. Lets assume that in a few weeks, maybe even a month rockets will be fired from Gaza. What should Israel do? The agreement was with Abu Mazen, not Hamas. So Israel will hold and do nothing. And the rockets will continue coming. At some point Israel will respond. there will be deaths. How will the western bank palestinians feell about it? Not likely that they will justify it, no? And what will happen if a group of terrorists will start shooting people down from a hill? Or a mortar will explode in Ben Gurion airport? Will Abu Mazen be able to hold his people? Why would he, if he can't do it now? Why would he if the attack against Israel is likely to be supported from many sources in the arab world? This isn't peace.
Maybe we need another 100 years of war until everyone will understand that we are here to stay. As long as refugee camps are being kept in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan etc, as long as there will be a special term for "palestinian refugee" in the UN chart, as long as the arabs will continue to beleive that there is any other choice but to accept Israel's existance - there will be war here.
The USA's cooperation is highly valued here, but all sides have their own limits and I assume that the "game of thrones" is way more complicated that it might seem to us. What I'm sure of - is that there are no easy solutions here.

Bo_Sox - Next time you'll drop by to visit drop me a note, I'll take you to places in the western bank that will tell you a different story.

I was there on a military excursion (don't quite remember what exactly they called it, but it was official). It wasn't a tourist "safe area" tour to say the least.