"OK, well, if you find that compelling, Damian, good for you, I suppose..."
More compelling. I'm not actually a christian... just curious, and agnostic.
"It still doesn't compel me or, indeed, make the Creation Account of Genesis any more plausible, on two counts:
1. Probably the most obvious, an "age" isn't exactly a determinate amount of time, either, so that's not validating the timeline as it is...on the surface it may seem to remove the issue of the world being created in 6 days, but it's just replacing that with "age," which is vague and can mean...well, as much or as little time as you want, really, so I'd say if someone were inclined to say "Ah, now that makes sense" such a person would probably have already been looking for a way for it to make sense and justify the account anyway...it being an "age" rather than a day doesn't help the account's timeline all that much, and after all, Genesis would STILL have dozens upon dozens of scientific and logical errors, so even if I were to be generous and say this fixed any holes (and I don't, in fact, I'd go so far as to say it hurts the Creationist argument, and I'll say why in a moment) there would still be far, FAR too many, and the Creationist ship would still sink and, in fact, really has sunk to those in the business of being logical about it; if you want to hold it as a part of your religion, as much as I don't care for religion, that's your choice, and I can understand someone saying "I know there are huge logical issues with it, but I'm willing to suspend Logic for Faith in the case of Genesis," but when Genesis or any other Creation account is attempted to be presented as fact, it fails, and miserably."
Yeah, there are problems with genesis. The major reason I like the age thing I ran across, is this. (I don't actually know my bible very well, so correct me if the days are wrong)First age, creation of night and day (Space), Second Age, creation of water (Earth is all water), Third age, Land and the first plants (The very first micro organisms begin to photosynthesize), Fourth, sea creatures (The pre-reptilian age, when most organisms lived in the sea), Fifth, Land creatures (The age of dinosaurs and such), Sixth, Man (Modern age). This places god in a constant act of creation shaping the world as it transitioned through the geographic ages. I'm not saying I agree with the account of genesis necessarily but if you consider it it is certainly a more compelling view.
"2. Besides ALL that, however, is how I think this would actually hurt the Creationist argument--namely, that it'd be the case of someone saying either that there was a mistranslation or a misunderstanding in regards to the text...for one, that doesn't imbue me those like me with a sense of trust in either the text (ie, the Bible itself) or translators (ie, the various Judeo-Christian sects) or those claiming the text to be truthful. After all, if this is a mistake, or mistranslation, what other mistranslations are there? If it's a corruption, that is, if the text has been corrupted by millenia of translating it and re-translating it across the various eons and into thousands of languages and thousands of versions WITHIN those thousands of languages...well, no one would be surprised, but it would expose a flaw in trusting this text as factual or true on any account, as well as the religions based off of it."
The Good Book, is already known to have these sort of translation errors all the time, multiple interpretations, etc. There is even an ongoing argument between unitarian's and trinitarians about if a section of verse. (The end of John I think) was added after the fact. These disagreements have been going on for years. It certainly isn't about to hurt it anymore now.
"And yet in that passage, you show why such a God would, in fact, be a God designing us to fail--"
You're insane. That's the exact point I was counter. Perhaps not well as I made it brief as I was on a phone then.
Let me try again. Imagine for a second the theory of multiple universes is true, one created for each branching decisions point. God can see all these universes. That is his knowledge. That is the point of free will. We get to choose. There is no choice if it is pre-determined.
So god saw the possibility of Man's fall, but also the possibility of Eve rejecting the serpent. It isn't setting us up to fail. Free will inherently allows us to succeed of fail independently. That is what is set up. Not some sadistic situation in which Eve is destined to fall.
"But if you're that 2-year old, and Adam and Eve essentially were, they are NOT responsible for their actions, I'm sorry, but they're not, NOT ONE philosopher of ethics through the ages--from Plato to Aristotle to Aquinas to Locke to Rousseau to Kant and Mill and on and on--accepts that idea, they ALL agree that a child like that can't be responsible for themselves, and no court in America or Britain or anywhere else in the Western World would convict them, MUCH LESS convict them AND all their children to follow of a crime."
Fucking philosophers. I spent my entire last year reading them. This is one idea that drives me insane. Children aren't rational, animals aren't rational. They may be different, but they are still both as responsible for their actions as any other being.
Action-consequence.
Gah. Philosophers are messed up.
"That's attributing human attributes to God, though."
So what. Love, is a 'human' emotion and god is attributed with it all the time. (Also an animal emotion but you know what, again fuck philosophers. They're all crazy, with supremacist complexes)
Probably not a productive discussion. As I really don't care about a lot of typical insistences. Ie. God being perfect.
But seriously, a more proper metaphor would be. Child is in the kitchen. There are a whole bunch of toys on the floor, burner is on. Parent went to the washroom. Child touches the flame. God didn't know where adam was after he ate the apple, no reason to assume he was watching as eve took the apples. Nor does it make sense to claim god knew eve would choose to pick the apples. All he should know, is the that because man and women (Because screw sexism) possess free will that there is possibility of disobedience