Yeah, that may be true, Thucy.

If I may, though, aren't you being a little narrow-viewed yourself -- whether culturally, generationally, or who knows what? -- in saying you can't have these things? A spouse and children are pretty basic aspects of human lives, and people have had them in very, very poor circumstances. Poorer than you are ever likely to face. Isn't the suggestion that you can't have them itself based on an unwillingness to have them if you can't provide a lifestyle within a standard deviation or so of the American middle class vision?

Very good point.

However, I think that in my society, first-world American society, if you don't have a certain amount of money, you can't generally have a family even if you want one. This is partly because you're less likely to have a long-term spouse if your income is low, and less likely to persuade your spouse, yourself, and your friends and family that having a child is not irresponsible given your low income.

It's screwed up that in the modern world that's how it works, because as you rightly point out, it has not long been this way and is still not this way in most places. However it's the life I was born into, and that's okay. I'm not bitter. It's certainly not an unwillingness, rather a prediction. I am personally willing to raise a family in poor circumstances, but perhaps only one or two children at the maximum.

And even then if I can barely feed myself I will not have children. In the United States, doing such a thing would be really irresponsible and ultimately be a burden to others.

So to answer your question it's not unwillingness, it's the economy and culture I live in, coupled with my life choices. In some sense I am unwilling in that I am not going to change my lifestyle in order to be more likely to make enough money to have a family, you are right in that. I am not however unwilling in the sense that I can still have a family in poverty and just won't. I don't believe that if I am poor that I can, or can responsibly at any rate. Know what I mean?

There is always of course the possibility of finding love in a foreign country where things are different. In fact, the only shreds of hope I hold out for having a home and family lie in this possibility, though I'm certainly not betting on it.

Whatever. These posts are meant to elicit pity, if they were, that would be indeed be entitled behavior! Lol.

Now that's a catch-22. If you have children while you live in poverty you're criticized for having children when you can't afford to support them correctly. If you don't have children because you can't afford them then you're criticized for using that as an excuse.

Agreed, CelticFox. I think it is the former criticism that is unjustified.

One thing's for sure -- if you're going to make it in this world, you'd better get used to having SOMEBODY criticizing you.

Don't bet too heavily on the whole rational approach to wife and children. Forming a family is a pretty good thing and it happens sometimes whether you plan on it happening or not. Another thing is that you're young. If you have the time to read one, I'd highly recommend any of Dave Ramsey's books, especially "The Total Money Makeover". It different from a lot of money books in that it's based on pretty sound principles that are quite optimistic. It is more of a book about how to handle money and think of it as a tool to help you in the future than anything else.

Ain't that the truth. Why can't we all just love and support each other despite any differences?

Basically like anything else handling money is something that you develop habits with like eating, exercising, etc. The earlier in life you get started on finding out how to do it , the better off you'll be.

Okay so turning the conversation a different direction - what cultural norms do you think are shared among the new generation that may portend future changes in the culture as a whole?

Basically, what will this place be like culturally when people my age are graying?

That's always so hard to say, because so often a generation's norms become much more like their parents as they age. Just look at the baby boomers in the 60s and now.

I must say I feel that this webdip-generation is of much poorer quality than when I was webdip-young.

:P

>You are posting too frequently, please slow down.
No, I'm not
>You are posting too frequently, please slow down.
Get out of my way, I'm a mod!

:P

:)

TGM, I wouldn't expect you to be able to do this since you're rusty and out of practice, but one must develop an internal rhythm counting off the seconds until you can post again.

I make it a point of personal pride if I can wait exactly long enough to post again without seeing the Infernal Message.

REPLY POSTED SUCCESSFULLY!

I've always tried to get as many copies of the "please slow down" as possible.

The big change has already taken place, but will get worse, and that is instant gratification. In an age where cell phones and high speed internet are ubiquitous (in the first world, anyway), people want instant results in everything they do and expect instant results from those in power.

^this is true. But while this can be bad, can it not also be good? The world itself moves very quickly and often the world must now act quickly to respond - olden-days timescales no longer work for some problems.

I see what you're saying though - it's definitely a defining feature of the generation.

I've had instant results demanded of me my entire life. I don't see how this is new or why it's a big deal that younger kids have internalized some of the same values that were imposed on them.

You must admit that people today are remarkably impatient, and that the young generation has never known anything else.

This is the world of 24-hour coffee shops and customer service lines. This is the world of delivery pizza, even delivery beer and weed. This is the world where we bitch that the banks hour's are so short. I'm pretty sure most people today would be called impatient even a few decades ago.

I do it too. I'm impatient myself. It's society-wide, this one is. The microwave culture, my mother always used to say.

Bank hours are definitely too short. Banks are open 9-5. Everybody works 9-5. Fuck banks.

I mean yeah I hate that shit too I'm just saying everything used to be like that and no one thought twice about it.

If I had any money I'd probably be more bothered.

Could you imagine how awful the world would have been 100 years ago if people where as impatient then as they are now? They might have steamed passenger ships at ridiculous speeds through iceberg infested waters just to shave a few hours off the voyage time, or cut huge corners in health and safety on construction projects to get things like dams built faster. thank god that never happened...

People are little more impatient now than in the past. It just seems that way as most of them had no choice other than to wait.

@Thucydides -- Sometimes I will let a couple of people go in front of me in a crowded line, especially if they seem impatient. I'll usually say something to impart that getting to the front of the line quickly is not really that important, which of course makes me look slightly magisterial. This seems to have the effect of lightening everyone in the room up. It's easy to do and sets a good example.

For my part, I've learned to enjoy standing in lines. Standing in line to get baseball tickets is *much* better than being at work, or getting yelled at by my parents, for example.

Perhaps that's true Octavious but back then people didn't loudly complain, possibly indeed because they knew they had no choice.

Wait a minute, who delivers beer?