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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Dys Claimer (116 D)
23 Nov 11 UTC
DiplomacyCast 11 (Podcast)
Just thought I'd mention for anyone interested:
The 11th episode of "DiplomacyCast", the Diplomacy podcast, came out last week. Check it out at www.diplomacycast.com or at www.facebook.com/DiplomacyCast
1 reply
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
23 Nov 11 UTC
A disconcerting development
In my country, the life expectancy for men has risen by about five months, of women by a little over two years.
12 replies
Open
Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
23 Nov 11 UTC
GenCon
How many people think they might come this coming year? And how many will play Diplomacy there in there F2F section?
6 replies
Open
QUICK LIVE NOVICE
we need 1 it starts at 11:35
0 replies
Open
Cachimbo (1181 D)
21 Nov 11 UTC
A challenge to Babak
This is to be found in the Cut-Throat "Hosted" GR Challenge Game thread. Read below.
32 replies
Open
Needs 1
live med gunboat needs 1 person
0 replies
Open
jwalters93 (288 D)
23 Nov 11 UTC
The Absolute Truth
No, this is not a discussion on absolutes. It is an experiment. I wnt to play a diplomacy game in which all players must tell the truth, and nothing but the truth, to their fellow diplomats. I think it could make for a very interesting game. Lies by omission would be acceptable, and trying to mislead someone without lying is certainly encouraged. Would anyone else be interested in such a game?
16 replies
Open
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
17 Nov 11 UTC
The Democratic-controlled Senate has not produced a budget in more than 930 days.
This makes is hard for Obama to run with any credibility at all against a "do nothing Congress" when his own party hasn't done even its most basic job in the Senate for over two years.
14 replies
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obiwanobiwan (248 D)
23 Nov 11 UTC
OK, I'll Give Mr. Gingrich Credit Where Credit Is Due...
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/newt-gingrich-prepared-heat-immigration-043951171.html
I DO think that's one of the more reasonable positions taken on immigration, especially by a GOP Candidate...never been a fan of Newt's, but he's at least now said one thing I genuinely agree with in these debates...that's one more than the rest of the GOP field...your take?
11 replies
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BuZzEvilly (135 D)
23 Nov 11 UTC
WORLD WAR 2030 AD! LETS GO! )))
JOIN ALL: http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=73018
0 replies
Open
taos (281 D)
23 Nov 11 UTC
the world needs to see that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gzyeo1Z1I4&feature=youtu.be
3 replies
Open
carson87 (102 D)
23 Nov 11 UTC
Reporting Proxi accounts?
Where can you report Proxi users?
1 reply
Open
dubjamaica (0 DX)
23 Nov 11 UTC
Spread the Love
If you guys wanna get down tonight, join us here gameID=73003 =) tons of fun and sweet foreign candies!
1 reply
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
22 Nov 11 UTC
Kaiser Wilhelm syndrome
Playing Germany is different than any other country right? You can't just play around like you're Italy, or am I mistaken?
8 replies
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icepebble (109 D)
22 Nov 11 UTC
WorldDip map
Hello all

Haven't played here before. Was wondering if there was a different style map for the world game. Finding it difficult to read country/province names in the darker spaces and can't read in the dark blue FA spaces at all.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give.
5 replies
Open
franzjosefi (1291 D)
23 Nov 11 UTC
How do you find a bloody password?
As I understand it password protected games are typically posted in the forum. You see the game and then go look in the forum for the post with the password but without a search function how do you find it?
5 replies
Open
join the game
It is called play the awesome game and the bet is 10
0 replies
Open
patizcool (100 D)
21 Nov 11 UTC
Question for Tettleton's Chew
Seeing as you continuously start threads about how the left is continuously wrong and flawed forever, explain the following question to me. Why did this financial meltdown the world is currently experiencing come under a right wing president of the United States. The housing markets were obliterated, the debt of the United States and Europe went through the roof, and the stock markets still have not recovered all their gains.
52 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
Super Mario vs. The PETA...What A Bunch Of Goombas (I Kid, No One Get Uppity...)
http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in/peta-slams-mario-over-fur-suit-211025773.html
Really? ...Super Mario wears a racoon suit--that we all know he's worn before, if you're a child of the 80s or 90s--with magical flying powers...and that=mistreatment towards real racoons? ...These people have NOTHING better to do? Mama mia...
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Putin33 (111 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
Yellowjacket you're so edgy and masculine and humorous. Oh look at me, I'm a tough guy who jokes about slaughtering and skinning of seals. Look at how macho I am. I'm also going to go eat a live chicken. HAR HAR HAR, people for eating tasty animals. HAR HAR HAR. Comedic gold.

"I don't know why Baby Seal Hunting is the crown jewel of animal rights movements"

Generally speaking it's considered loathsome to hunt and kill endangered species, especially as the seal population continues to drop with global warming. But I'm sure Yellowjacket approves. Second, few animals are slaughtered in such a massive bloodbath as seals every year. Third, they kill the seals by clubbing them and then shooting them, a barbaric and inhumane practice.

Putin33 (111 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/seal_hunt/2011_hunt/home.html

Watch that video and then tell me it's ok.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
The excuse that it's "only digital" would be persuasive if not for the fact that legions of gaming obsessed weirdos routinely dress up in costumes from their favorite games all the time. I could see some wacko getting an actual tanooki suit just to be considered cool among his "friends". Besides there's no real reason why a kids game should be having its characters run around in raccoon dog pelts.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
"Putin, you can agree with a cause but think very lowly of the organizations that represent them. PETA has a long history of extremism so it's not outrageous to be an animal rights activist and disagree with PETA's statements or methods.

Similarly, I'd consider myself an environmentalist but I despise Greenpeace."

Right, which is why you're seriously questioning why people would be upset with clubbing baby seals. Sure, I believe you...

The fact is PETA is the largest and most effective animal rights organization in existence. They have raised a lot of attention and been instrumental in changing attitudes and laws about animal cruelty.

But it's pretty typical among sectors of the middle class to insist that they agree with the cause but don't actually want anything done about it, and certainly don't want to *gasp* inconvenience anybody and get anybody out of their happy comfort zone of apathy and ambivalence.
orathaic (1009 D(B))
16 Nov 11 UTC
"Extremism polarizes and we don't need polarization. We need the world to come *together* to see what we are doing to fuck it up and *agree* to correct the problem, not make it us versus them."

i think they are trying to create controversy and start a conversation where the end result is people coming together and agreeing that blah blah... as opposed to being ignored by pretty much everyone.

It's hard to make it into conversation without doing something which is at least newsworthy... I don't know how much damage they are doing to the animal rights movement.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
There was no animal rights movement before PETA.
Yonni (136 D(S))
16 Nov 11 UTC
To tell you the truth, that movie didn't much for me.
Killing animals is never pretty but, unless you're advocating vegetarianism, it's an inevitability. The best we can do is set up rule to make sure that it's done as humanely and sustainably as possible and I think the seal hunt is a better example of this than the sources of most of NAmerican meat.

I don't believe that harp seals or grey seals are endangered and there are quotas in place to try maintain the populations. The biggest risk to their population is, of course, climate change and if, they do become endangered, I should hope that appropriate measure are put into place.

A 2002 study by the Canadian Veterinary Journal concluded that 98% of seals were killed in an acceptably humane manner. (i.e. not skinned alive or left to suffer before being killed).

I have to say that I feel that a lot of the opposition has racist subtext. Seal meat and fur is foreign to most North Americans, unlike beef and leather. I think there is a tendency to want to protect anything cute that we're not used to being food. However, to the Indigenous people it has long been a source of clothing and protein similarly to how we see cows. The difference is that cows are inhumanely kept in large factory farms while the seals are, as the yuppies like to call it, free range (well, actually even freer than that).
SacredDigits (102 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
"And the methods used at factory farms are always lethal?
I don't know numbers but I'd hazard a guess that the clubbing ('cause I kill it in da clubs) is at least as effective. "

There's laws that regulate how those work, but they won't regulate hunting by indigineous people. Also, are you saying that just because something else is just as bad nothing should be done about either?
Yonni (136 D(S))
16 Nov 11 UTC
Yes, PETA has done a lot to start the movement and I can give commendations for that. However, it doesn't mean that I can't disagree with some of things they say.

Besides that, please don't go around throwing accusations like:
"But it's pretty typical among sectors of the middle class to insist that they agree with the cause but don't actually want anything done about it, and certainly don't want to *gasp* inconvenience anybody and get anybody out of their happy comfort zone of apathy and ambivalence. "
I never claimed to have solid grasp on the tricky subject of animal rights. Nor did I claim to have an idea of what I want to do about it.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
If only commercial seal hunting was just done by the First Nations. Commercial seal hunters exploit whatever they can to justify the destruction of the seals. So yeah, let's call the opponents "racists" and pretend like they're not doing anything about factory farming or the treatment of pigs, cows, and chickens.

That report got a lot of attention, especially because they put this caveat in it "“The views expressed in this article are those of the authors and do not constitute an official position of the CVMA." Which means it isn't speaking for Canadian veterinary professionals. The people who cite your "study" are the Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans, the leading defenders of the slaughter and skinning of seals. Even in your report, the Dauost report, it said:

"
• Daoust et al. note that in 87% of the 116 cases examined,
sealers “failed to palpate the skull or check the corneal reflex before proceeding to hook or bleed the seal or go to
another seal.”


"What the veterinarians reported was this: In 13 (17%) of
the 76 carcasses examined, there were no detectable lesions of
the skull, leading to the conclusion that these seals had been
skinned while conscious. An additional 19 (25%) seal
carcasses exhibited minimal to moderate skull fractures
indicative of “a decreased level of consciousness” but probably
not unconsciousness. Combined, these figures are the source
of the claim that up to 42% of the 76 seals examined may well
have been skinned while conscious. The remaining 58% of the
seals examined exhibited extensive fractures that would have
been associated with some level of unconsciousness"

"
In total then, both Daoust et al. and the IFAW observers
agreed that of 116 interactions between harp seals and sealers
videotaped during the 2001 hunt, there were:
• 26 (22.4%) definite, questionable or possible violations,
where seals were not rendered unconscious prior to hooking or skinning.
• An additional 2 (1.7%) were inconclusive"

Furthermore, another report indicates that:

"Burdon et al.’s observations from the videos of the 1998-
2000 hunts may be summarized briefly as follows (p. 9 +
Appendices 3 -5):
• 179 seals were observed hunted. Ninety-six of these were
shot; 56 were shot or clubbed; 19 were clubbed or gaffed
[Note: neither gaffs nor boat hooks are legal instruments
for killing seals in Canada], and 8 were killed by unknown
means.
• In 79% of cases, sealers did not check for a corneal reflex
indicating that many of these seals potentially could have
been skinned or hooked alive.
• Only 6% were bled immediately after being struck.
• 72 (40%) seals were shot or clubbed and left to suffer.
• At least 30 seals were hooked while still alive.
• At least 5 were bled alive.
• At least 4 were skinned alive.

"
In summary, IFAW’s observers detected 55 putative instances
where animals were still conscious after being shot or clubbed,
or where live seals were hooked, bled, skinned alive, or struck
and lost. Daoust et al. disagreed with the interpretation in 27
of these instances, but were unable to reject the interpretation in
the remaining 28 instances. In other words, there was
agreement that up to 24.1% of 116 pups were not killed
humanely, or in a manner consistent with Canada’s Marine
Mammal Regulations"

http://www.ifaw.org/Publications/Program_Publications/Seals/asset_upload_file432_12084.pdf

"
Coincidentally or not, these figures are not very different
from the data provided in Burdon et al. from post-mortem
examination of skulls from seals killed in the hunt. If their
results are in any way representative of the entire hunt, they
would suggest that somewhere between 41,000 and 100,000+
animals are skinned while still conscious.
Together, the two reports also document that a number of
animals each year are hooked and dragged across the ice while
still conscious and some of these are still alive by the time they
reach the decks of sealing vessels. "

http://www.ifaw.org/Publications/Program_Publications/Seals/asset_upload_file432_12084.pdf

Yonni (136 D(S))
16 Nov 11 UTC
Thanks, interesting.

Then, I suppose I would have to support putting stronger restrictions on the seal hunt (i.e. enforcing the use of modern instruments of death rather than clubs).

Would that solve the issue?
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
No. Hunting baby seals (which is what this is, very very few of those killed are adults) is as much "hunting" as Dick Cheney's quail hunt. If Putin's Russia recognizes that seal hunting should have been banned a long time ago, supposed "advanced" countries like Canada should be able to recognize this.

Yonni (136 D(S))
16 Nov 11 UTC
I was under the impression that it was illegal to hunt whitecoats. Also, I assume that you're also an advocate for making veal illegal?
Draugnar (0 DX)
16 Nov 11 UTC
Well, hell... Then maybe eating eggs should be illegal. They don't get much younger than eggs and then you crack them open and pour them in a pan or *gasp* boil them alive! Baby or adult is irrelevant. Set quotas and enforce humane methods. that is what is relevant when it comes to hunting.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
It is only illegal to commercially trade whitecoat products in Canada. But anyway most seals are less than 3 months old when killed, and quite a lot of ragged jackets (seals in the process of shedding their white coats) are killed and it is legal to trade in them.

"Since 1998, the Canadian commercial seal hunt has landed an
average of 257,000 harp seals annually. On average, 95%
(239,000) of these were pups aged between about 2 weeks and

"Also, I assume that you're also an advocate for making veal illegal?"

Absolutely, you're not?
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
"Well, hell... Then maybe eating eggs should be illegal. They don't get much younger than eggs and then you crack them open and pour them in a pan or *gasp* boil them alive!"

Here comes Draugnar with his brilliant commentary. So are you going to equate a fertilized human egg with a newborn baby in order to make this dumb analogy? We can't be opposed to killing newborn babies unless we're also opposed to aborting these early fertilized eggs, right?

The problem with chicken eggs is much different, as anybody who has seen the videos of chicken farms burning off the beaks of chickens can attest. Chickens are forced to produce eggs until their bones are brittle and calcium depleted and then they are killed.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
*2 weeks and 3 months*
Yonni (136 D(S))
16 Nov 11 UTC
I don't think so.
In my mind, killing a baby cow is no less humane (and possibly more humane) than raising it in such destitute conditions as most cows are raised in.
Really, if we're killing them anyways, I don't think their age really plays much of a role for me. If we, as humans, have the right to kill animals then I don't think I'd discriminate by age.

I've entertained the idea of being vegetarian but am still on the fence on the issue (read: am not a vegetarian) but I really don't know what rights I think animals deserve. The environmental arguments are sometimes more compelling to me.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
It's not about age, it's about the conditions calfs used for veal are forced to endure. They are forced to live in tiny crates allowing no exercise so their muscles are weak, because they are sold for the "tender" meat. They are also physically separated from their mothers at birth immediately, and force fed a milk substitute that is very low in iron, for the same reason as above, to keep their muscles weak and also to ensure their skin is pale. Veal calfs are so inhumanely treated that they are much more susceptible to disease than ordinary calfs.
Yonni (136 D(S))
16 Nov 11 UTC
But there are alternatives to crate-raised and formula fed veal, no?

I know it's no journal but this article suggests that it's trending away from that:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/18/dining/18veal.html?pagewanted=all
fulhamish (4134 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
Crating for veal production was banned in the UK over 20 years ago. More recently it was banned in the EU. I believe that the US is still ''working towards'' banning it.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
Free raised veal, yeah, but it's not a trend.

According to your article:

"And the American Veal Association, a majority of whose members still raise their animals in crates, maintains that the new kinds of veal on the market don’t even deserve the name. “We don’t believe it’s veal,” said Bryan Scott, the executive vice president for legislative and regulatory affairs. “By definition, any animal that’s grass-fed or grain-fed has taste and texture and characteristics of beef animals. We believe they should be called calf or young steer.”"
fulhamish (4134 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
Crate raising gives a lovely tender meat because the calf's movements are so limited that the muscles cannot properly develop. It's obscene.
Yonni (136 D(S))
16 Nov 11 UTC
Fair. I haven't really had to make a conscious decision to avoid veal as it's well out of budget anyways.

But back to your argument against hunting seals. You said that you would oppose seal hunting, even if they were killed properly, because they're killing baby seals.

a) I thought hunting whitecoats was illegal
b) You said that the treatment, not the age, was your opposition to veal. So how about the baby seals?
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
16 Nov 11 UTC
obscenely delicious.
Draugnar (0 DX)
16 Nov 11 UTC
Veal Milano
Veal Parmesan
Veal Marsala...

Yummm. I just finished lunch but those all sound so gooooooood! omnomnom
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
I already addressed the first point, the vast vast majority of the killed seals are younger than 3 months, many are ragged jacket seals which haven't fully shed their whitecoats. As for the second point, I think it's particularly repulsive to kill animals for no other purpose than for fashion, as in furs. Also, the "hunt" is more akin to murder than a hunt. It's not as if the baby seals can defend themselves. And it's very very difficult, due to the conditions of ice and slippery surface, to actually kill these defenseless animals in a so-called "humane" way.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
"obscenely delicious.

Veal Milano
Veal Parmesan
Veal Marsala...

Yummm. I just finished lunch but those all sound so gooooooood! omnomnom"

I can imagine you, as infants, in creates so tiny you're not allowed to move, and purposely fed milk substitute that makes you anemic, which also laced with formaldehyde to "prevent" the constant diarrhea due to malnutrition.

Dickheads.
Putin33 (111 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
Really, you two twits can never claim you actually care about animals. Your complaint about PETA is not that they're too extreme, but that you're callous pieces of human excrement who think barbarism is cool and funny.
SacredDigits (102 D)
16 Nov 11 UTC
I used to work on a family dairy farm. We didn't pursue being able to sell our cattle for beef since dairy stock isn't desirable to the beef industry, but we did butcher some for ourselves, particularly young males since you really only need a few for the purposes of breeding, if you even decide to go with live bulls for that. We fed all calves regular milk that we got straight from the cows whether we intended to keep them or not. And they were not kept in crates or anything, they were all penned with plenty of room to move around. And I'd say, personally, that I never noticed a quality difference between that veal and what you'd buy in a store.

Personally, I think that while crating certainly seems like it would produce a different quality of meat, personal experience says "not really." Just a bunch of people who want to cling to their barbaric methods.

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141 replies
Hman125 (100 D)
22 Nov 11 UTC
Making a world game
game number 72969

join time is 3 days and phase is 1 day
1 reply
Open
Diplomat33 (243 D(B))
22 Nov 11 UTC
Something missing
Look at my win loss draw survive record. Something is missing. Where is the 1%? Guess the OWS protesters will be happy the 1% is gone :-)
14 replies
Open
orathaic (1009 D(B))
08 Nov 11 UTC
Webdip leagues are back!
Looking for anyone who is interested in signing up for the new season.

Old players will receive an email in the next 48 hours.
Myself and Draugnar have agreed to Co-direct this tournament as Alderian has had to step down.
189 replies
Open
ormi (100 D)
22 Nov 11 UTC
magyar nyelven
Keresünk még egy játékost, akinek volna kedve játszani magyarul. Ha van jelentkező, akkor mondom a játék adatait.
2 replies
Open
Dosg (404 D)
22 Nov 11 UTC
Cancelled games
I wish you could find out who has NMR'd, and subsequently leaves in Anonymous games.

I've just wasted over an hour playing a game that we had to cancel.
19 replies
Open
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
03 Sep 11 UTC
Government vs the Market
The Great Recession and Government Failure
When comparing the performance of markets to government, markets look pretty darn good.
80 replies
Open
goldfinger0303 (3157 DMod)
17 Nov 11 UTC
NFL Pick'Em Week 11
Someone else has got to do the stats, because frankly I don't have time. Hope this doesn't come up too late for some of our regulars.
28 replies
Open
stratagos (3269 D(S))
22 Nov 11 UTC
Great position in a public press
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=71470

I was just eliminated, so I can't take it - but please, feel free to go for the solo ;)
1 reply
Open
BuglerV (0 DX)
22 Nov 11 UTC
World War. 5 D. 12 Hours.
1 reply
Open
BuglerV (0 DX)
22 Nov 11 UTC
World War. 10 D. 12 Hours.
0 replies
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idealist (680 D)
22 Nov 11 UTC
live anyone?
i know we have a live thread...but anyone awake for live? im willing to do 1v1 games on vdiplomacy also
2 replies
Open
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