I'm sorry, but for me...

It's as if there was an "All-White Literary Hall of Fame," and someone allowed in Langston Hughes on the grounds that he was "posthumously White."

(Which is wrong in every possible sense, but I digress, one outrage at a time...)

And it's a shameless plug for these people and their Church--

To take one of the most well-known figureheads of a tragedy in modern memory, and exploit it to shove your own brand of "faith"...



I stand by my word--DESPICABLE!

I'm a bad Jew in every theological sense of the word, but as an ethnic and cultural Jew, I'm still enormously proud of my heritage, and THAT has me genuinely incensed and offended!

i don't know if you can it's despicable. they've been posthumously baptizing jews for awhile. you're acting as if they're trying to steal jews away from their culture or something. they obviously think someone needs to be baptized mormon to have a decent afterlife. either mormonism is correct, and what they're doing is actually saving anne frank, or judaism is correct and their baptism does absolutely nothing, or both are complete nonsense and it's just some people trying in vain to help people they think deserve it. in any event, despicable sounds harsh.

They don't do it publicly nor do they announce it. They do it because they believe you can only be saved if you are baptized in their church. They do believe she has the option to accept or decline the baptism so they don't mean it to be insulting in anyway. Also it's against policy to do it for holocaust victims as it says in the article you linked.

"i don't know if you can it's despicable. they've been posthumously baptizing jews for awhile."

I REALLY try not to follow Mormonism...at all...

I know a couple Mormons, and they're VERY nice people...but I think just about everything in their religion is incredibly messed up and nonsensical (at best) so, like adults do, we just agree to leave that part be and enjoy one another's company and messages.

So I just found out about this...

But I'll be honest--converting Jews, that's one thing, that's *bad enough*...

But doing this with the figurehead of the Holocaust? THAT is just completely insensitive and insulting...and I'm not one to generally get insulted like this on a personal, ethnic level, I'll get riled up about the "Twilight" books, sure, and maybe even offended a bit intellectually...but not like THIS...this is different.

"you're acting as if they're trying to steal jews away from their culture or something."

I'm "acting" as someone who's indignant about the idea of a people so smug, so ego-centric, so bigoted and sure of themselves, and so intolerant of others, that they feel they wield the power of Heaven and Hell over the dead, over other people, and can determine where they go...

AS IF THEIR RELIGIOUS, NATIONAL, OR SEXUAL ORIENTATION SHOULD *MATER!*

I'd think any tolerance-minded person would be offended!

And to boot, again...it's ANNE FRANK! This is someone who DIED FOR BEING *JEWISH!* She and 6 million others!

To retroactively convert her to something else...that IS to take away her Jewish identity, or to try...

AND THAT'S WHAT THE NAZIS WANTED TO DO IN THE FIRST PLACE, TO STAMP OUT THE JEWISH PEOPLE AND CULTURE!!!!!! >.<

AND HERE THESE PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO DO IT TO THEM FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE!

It's despicable for them doing this to Holocaust Jews...
It'd be desipcable if they did it to Apartheid Africans...
To Blacks and Latinos of a different faith...
To Buddhists and Hindus...
To gays, to lesbians, to atheists...

To ANY group, but it's the fact that, yes, I'm Jewish, and it's the figurehead of our worst tragedy EVER, a tragedy so bad it nearly completely destroyed the Jewish culture, to a point where Yiddish, once a prominent second-language in Europe, is all but destroyed and much of the literature, art, and music along with it...to do it to ANNE FRANK...

Do de-Jew-i-fy her...when that's what the Nazis wanted, to cleanse Europe of them...

It REEKS of the most foul and disgusting and despicable sentiment!

"either mormonism is correct, and what they're doing is actually saving anne frank, or judaism is correct and their baptism does absolutely nothing, or both are complete nonsense and it's just some people trying in vain to help people they think deserve it. in any event, despicable sounds harsh."

I don't think it's a secret here that I'm proudly agnostic and Jewish.

If there IS a God, one that cares about this...who cares if you're white or black, Christian or Jewish, theist or atheist, gay or straight...

I'll take Hell, I'd want to be as far away from such a despicable entity as POSSIBLE.

Despicable is harsh...

And I use it only because I can't, at the moment, think of a harsher word for these people and this practice and this whole idea.

itt: irrational refusal to understand other side's perspective, skewed and unrepresentative conclusions about other side as a result of that irrational refusal, fluffed up with plenty of big words, capital letters and winding paragraphs to make this woefully (or perhaps thankfully?) unreadable

/topic

They're "converting" dead Jews to Mormonism because, apparently, their God would send them straight to Hell if they weren't...because, Eden, as we all know, tolerance of other cultures is bull...

It's a forced-conversion of Anne Frank...after she's DEAD!

And died for BEING Jewish!

What's hard to understand, Eden...and what, exactly, on the other side would make that OK?

Under what conditions is it OK to convert someone against their will, or to insult their memory after they've died for being one thing by "making them" another.

If some White Church said:

"We've baptized Emmett Till as a White person and a White Christian, so NOW he can go to Heaven," would that be OK, at all, regardless of their "perspective?""

The oddest things piss you off obi...

I don't think Anne Frank is offended. She is dead.

What does it matter if Mormons wanted Anne Frank to go to heaven and baptised her. Just because some Mormons baptised her dead body, it doesn't make her Mormon

You didn't read my post or the news article YOU posted. "But the church also believes the dead person who is baptized by proxy can choose to reject it, and therefore isn’t forced to join the faith." There is no forced conversion.

Nor do they believe they would be sent to hell. Also it's nothing to do with the culture, but the fact that they're missing an "ordinance"

You're making yourself look stupid.

First of all, @obi, you misunderstand what tolerance is. Intolerance is refusing to allow another (living) person or persons to live their life as they see fit (and believing what they believe) without harming them. The Mormon church is not doing this. Therefore, it is tolerant.

Second, as the article you linked actually pointed out, Mormons believe that the person who is "baptized" can still choose to refuse it. Therefore, there is no forced conversion happening here, on either your worldview or theirs.

Finally, I think it is perfectly understandable that a church with the beliefs of the Mormon church would not view "tolerance" or "open mindedness" to extend to forego giving a chance at salvation to somebody who would otherwise not have one. Actually, I think it would be rather cruel of them NOT to give such a chance, ON THEIR BELIEFS. This is probably what PE was referring to.

""But the church also believes the dead person who is baptized by proxy can choose to reject it, and therefore isn’t forced to join the faith." There is no forced conversion."

Sorry--

I call bullshit there, and it's not hard to find the reason why...

"She is dead."

EXACTLY.

She's dead!
They're not going to say she rejected them...bad for business...
It's simply madness to accept that!

Are we going to start offering more dead people more "choices," and then interpreting their not speaking as evidence they haven't rejected us?

O.o

"What does it matter if Mormons wanted Anne Frank to go to heaven and baptised her."

Because for them to have to require her to be a Mormon BEFORE she goes to Heaven...

To suggest she can't get in as a Jew--

That doesn't smack of smugness and Anti-Semetism to anyone else?

"Intolerance is refusing to allow another (living) person or persons to live their life as they see fit (and believing what they believe) without harming them. The Mormon church is not doing this. Therefore, it is tolerant."

1. As they're dealing with her as if she still has a choice, ie, Mormonism or Judaism...well, if we grant that, we have to treat the person as at least partially ALIVE, if only partially/spiritually.

2. In any case...I disagree:

If I retroactively slander every last Muslim who ever lived and has now died...

I'm not being racist?

If so...since when is racism tolerant?

"Are we going to start offering more dead people more "choices," and then interpreting their not speaking as evidence they haven't rejected us?" They're not saying whether she has or not. They believe the choice is hers in the afterlife and we have no way of knowing what she chose. Performing the ordinance isnt a result of the choice it's the offering of the choice ;)

"To suggest she can't get in as a Jew--

That doesn't smack of smugness and Anti-Semetism to anyone else?"

Not at all. Honestly, obi, you're way off base here. The suggestion is really fucking obvious: non-Mormons can't go to their happy afterlife. That's THE SAME THING AS EVERY OTHER CONTEMPORARY RELIGION EVER. It has nothing to do with her ethnic Jewishness and everything to do with her religious non-Mormonism. It's no different than if they were to take me, a very much mixed-ethnic white individual of primarily German descent and an atheist, and posthumously baptize me Mormon so I can go to heaven... except that instead of shipping an unaccomplished undergrad upstairs, they're saving one of the most tragic victims of human malice in recorded history from eternal damnation.

Obviously whether their beliefs are true or not is up for debate, but give me a fucking break here, obi, this is in no way a negative reflection on the attitude of the Mormons involved.

And the question of whether it's tolerant or not is really a useless one, because it's obviously not, again like most other religions, when it comes to who gets into the afterlife. Whether that toleration (or lack therein) is good or bad is a normative evaluation to be made, but arguing over whether it's tolerant is a waste of time because it by definition is not.

Finally your white church comparison is absolutely invalid as this has nothing to do with her race.

"That doesn't smack of smugness and Anti-Semetism to anyone else?"

I see what you're saying. How about us atheists? Apparently we don't go to heaven either. I am going to sue God for discrimination. Or maybe I'll just start with the Catholic Church, at least they have plenty of money.

No, not insulting at all. Who cares what small cult does in private?

It is a little bit like trying to re-write history, but i think that has been going on forever or at least as long as we've had the written word to re-write...

Yeah PE is right on the ball here. That is not anti-Semitic at all. Its the same as every religion.

i am really surprised there is so much anger here about this. Anne Frank is dead and doesn't care. The babtism is a useless gesture anyway since the Mormon religion, Jews and Christians are all incorrect religions. Lastly, the Mormons are late to the game. As a representative of the Chuch of the FSM we beat them to the punch and converted Anne Frank a long time ago. As a reminder to others...our heaven has a beer volcano

Frankly I don't give a crap. Let the little fake religion have their fun. My family is up in arms, but who cares, if they believe in their faith then they know this is all bullshit. Here is why it isn't a big deal.

1. It wasn't even the Church in General, it was a church in Dominican Republic and the general church is against it
2. They can change all they want, the world knows she is Jewish, ie. it doesn't do anything
3. Mormonism is a joke

I think secularized jews find this more offensive because they have been programmed to see their religion as an ethnicity. So uber secular Jew Obi reads this as "They are saying Jews aren't good enough for them." Meanwhile if you went into an orthodox community, I would imagine they would probably laugh at the meshuga

"To suggest she can't get in as a Jew--

That doesn't smack of smugness and Anti-Semetism to anyone else? "

No, it smacks of their religion, just like we say we are the chosen people. It pisses alot of people off but it is our religion. I'm not in the business of demanding people to change their views because they won't allow me into the clubhouse.

This is weak. They should posthumously baptize Mohammed for some real trolling.

I can't help but feel that if the Nazis' Final Solution was to de-Jew the world by having a ceremony in a village hall where they declared all Jews weren't Jews anymore and could get on with life as normal, then the world would be considerably improved. If the nutters aren't hurting anyone, let them get on with it. Smile and wave and advise your kids to avoid them like the plague.

Everyone calm down; I got this:

BY THE POWER VESTED IN ME AS ADMINISTRATOR OF WEBDIPLOMACY, I HEREBY POSTHUMOUSLY UNBABTIZE ANNE FRANK!

Faith in webDip admins restored.

Has anyone (who is not of the Mormon faith ) read the Book of Mormon ?
I got a copy from an Op shop for 50 cents
I started reading it, but it's rather confusin' for my clockwork brain, and when I got to a
bit that stated a chappie had a steel weapon long before steel was around and about
I gave it all as a bit too fanciful for my tastes.

I do think that people are entitled to freedom of religious expression, with the
reservation that such freedom of religious expression must not be used to promote
or incite violence or hatred

As for Anne Frank, in my opinion, Anne and those who gave her shelter are genuine
heroes.

I am reluctant to get involved in a "this or that religion is fake and bullshit " exercise
my private opinion of Islam is probably offensive to Muslims, so what good does
it do to express those views publicly ?
I make no demands that Muslims renounce their faith
I simply say that Islam is not for me & generally leave it at that
mm<

oh, I made a typo error
I gave it all as a bit too fanciful, should read
I gave it up as a bit too fanciful
mm<