Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
13 Nov 13 UTC
(+4)
This is not a goodbye, it is an apology.
An open letter, to jmo from YJ
49 replies
Open
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
13 Nov 13 UTC
(+6)
Follow up forum moderation annoucement
Goldfinger and I will do the forum moderation from here on out. All other mods are there for emergencies and blatant cheating accusations/ongoing gunboat threads.
I hope this will resolve any outstanding issue. If it does not, please email us at [email protected]
15 replies
Open
trip (696 D(B))
14 Nov 13 UTC
So, I'm down to res and tap-out hits right now...
...and I think I just smoked a piece of turkey.
0 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
13 Nov 13 UTC
Hey Mr Tanbourine Man ......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24935048
2 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
12 Nov 13 UTC
David Barton
Who the hell gave this guy a microphone in the first place? And who the hell told him to try justifying one of the largest and longest-lasting massacres in human history?
74 replies
Open
hecks (164 D)
13 Nov 13 UTC
Worst Product Name Ever
Is it just me, or is this the worst-named product ever?
http://www.stonyfield.com/products/baby-kids/yokids/squeezers-strawberry
If you ever drive a van around town offering children a "YoKids Squeezer," you'll get arrested in two minutes flat. Don't they focus-group these things?
4 replies
Open
Tolstoy (1962 D)
12 Nov 13 UTC
Why wouldn't the NSA screw with American elections?
Motive? Check. Means? Check. Opportunity? Check.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/11/the-surveillance-state-puts-us-elections-at-risk-of-manipulation/281232/
19 replies
Open
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
13 Nov 13 UTC
(+2)
Its me again, your old friend zultar
I need some advice, but this is quite a bit different than any previous advice I've needed.
7 replies
Open
DogeKingofPINGAS (0 DX)
13 Nov 13 UTC
cunt
Bitch
9 replies
Open
steephie22 (182 D(S))
13 Nov 13 UTC
Can you marry a minor? Can you have sex with them when you're married?
Just a question I had after reading through Conservative Man's rather... typical thread...

In which countries is this possible? In which not? How about in practice?
5 replies
Open
GayJBrace (0 DX)
13 Nov 13 UTC
How to Play
What are the general rules of this game... what are the strategies
2 replies
Open
Maniac (189 D(B))
12 Nov 13 UTC
Testing a premise.
I caught a repeat of a TV programme with Dara O'Briain the other day. The premise was that any word you choose in the dictionary could be guessed by someone who could ask you 20 questions. I'm not sure if this is true.
21 replies
Open
Lebosfc (0 DX)
13 Nov 13 UTC
(+2)
My Dick Feels Like Corn
Guys would you be more afraid of a goat with a raging boner or a bear with much pained balls.
3 replies
Open
Help with how how to use Support Move to do what I want
Game: http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=129188
Looking for help on understanding how the Support Move command is actually used. FAQ is ambiguous and I am a new player.
8 replies
Open
dipplayer2004 (1110 D)
13 Nov 13 UTC
My son wants to learn Diplomacy
I am thrilled and proud. He is 12 years old.
I've created a classic game where he can try it out. I will give the password to players who want to join in showing him the ropes.
11 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
12 Nov 13 UTC
Five... Seven... Three... One... Two... Two... Eight...
JMOs thread got me thinking about number stations. Has anyone ever stumbled across one? Are they even still used?
13 replies
Open
Putin33 (111 D)
07 Nov 13 UTC
Why do people take pictures of their food?
Please explain this bizarre phenomenon to me.
19 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
12 Nov 13 UTC
Star Trek Enterprise started to bore me
But Season 3 seems okay, save the occasional heavily-inspired-on-previous-star-trek-series episode. The Xindi are well thought out IMHO.
10 replies
Open
steephie22 (182 D(S))
12 Nov 13 UTC
Who closed jmo's thread?
Just for the record, because it's kind of hilarious.
22 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
12 Nov 13 UTC
Stand your ground .......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24907851

Luckily the bitch was only a black burglar otherwise some folk might be calling for justice right now
7 replies
Open
holbi (123 D)
12 Nov 13 UTC
gb-76 cancel or draw?
Hi players... England and Germany are missing... this game is not going to be fair. What about drawing or cancelling?

Thanks.
11 replies
Open
tfwood (100 D)
12 Nov 13 UTC
Another site newbie
Long time postal dip veteran been out of the hobby for a while got a jones to play again (last played ftf at Origins couple of years ago). Just signed up for Classic_57. Saw on another post where someone said the moves took long (one a day). I giggled at that, as a veteran postal player. Not quite sure I understand this betting points thing, but I will play and see how it goes. Wish me luck and don't think of me as blood in the water. tfwood
6 replies
Open
ReBrock (189 D)
12 Nov 13 UTC
(+1)
Multy suspicious
Can you please check this game for multy!
gameID=128821
Thank you very much!
5 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
08 Nov 13 UTC
(+2)
Should Literature Be Useful? (YES. ABSOLUTELY. ...Right?)
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2013/11/should-literature-be-useful.html I disagree with the degree to which the author of this article praises sheer idleness and imagination in literature--in my mind, that is NOT what makes literature great, at least not on its own. The best authors, far from being simply imaginative, had arguments to make about the human condition OR very real arguments to make on social, psychological, and political policy. Thoughts?
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obiwanobiwan (248 D)
08 Nov 13 UTC
(+2)
To grossly oversimplify the point, I think you could classify a lot of writers as being Shakespearean or Shavian in the sense that--

--Shakespeare generally likes to talk about (and is probably best known and remembered for) tackling "the big questions" of human nature, the psyche, emotions, the human condition, the nature of love, power, etc. It's part of why "Hamlet" is considered by many to be his jewel amongst jewels and the character of Hamlet's arguably the most influential in all of English literature--he's ALL ABOUT taking on these big, issues and trying to ESCAPE his state of idleness (even though Freud argues Hamlet's not really idle, and I somewhat agree with tat, but I digress) by way of reasoning his way through these immense ethical, theological and philosophical dilemmas. He has the most lines of any Shakespeare character and his lines are the most widely quoted of any Shakespeare character. He's not just all idleness and imagination, he's trying to be actively putting his thoughts to use, which is ultimately what Shakespeare does throughout his works.

Dostoyevsky does this a lot too (Prince Myshkin and all three Brothers Karamazov try and use their ideological platforms to solve their problems) and the same can be said of writers like Dante and T.S. Eliot.

--By contrast, a Shavian writer, like Shaw himself, will tend to be more concerned with tackling social issues. You can't tiptoe through a Shaw play without some practical discussion of class and power structure, capitalism vs. socialism, democracy vs. alternatives to democracy, critique after critique of religion and especially religious institutions, gender roles...and often all in the same play.

Writers like Orwell and Huxley are in a similar vein--different politics, sure, but they're still arguing for some forms of social reform and against political ideals they see as damaging or even dangerous. If we wanted to really run the gamut here we could say that this holds true for racial writers (Langston Hughes, at least in the first stage of his poetic career, is very much concerned with furthering Black Americans, he's in no way just being imaginative or idle) and feminist writers (Rebecca West is a good example) and definite political writers (Voltaire, Swift, Eugene O'Neill and Ayn Rand are all definite political writers...they're very, VERY different in terms of what they're arguing for and chances are you're not going to like or agree with all four or maybe even two out of the four, but you can't argue they're celebrating idleness or just playing around with their imagination, Swift's fantasy worlds are all made for a carefully-crafted satirical and political point) and so on.

The "trap authors" here are Oscar Wilde and Bertrand Russell (an odd pairing, admittedly.) Both notably wrote things "celebrating" idleness.

But where Russell wrote "In Praise of Idleness," no one would ever DARE saying that he was chiefly concerned with that or that that was his ideological point on writing--he was a huge activist, and his writings are definitely concerned with both political issues as well as grander ideas of logic and reason and how that might be applied.

Wilde's probably the closest you'll come to someone who fits this, his "art for art's sake" quote's easily one of his most famous (and as that's Wilde, that's saying something.) And I think it's fair to say that at least some of his works do deal with decadence and idleness, positions his male protagonists in particular are pretty famous for. Wilde still's far too witty to leave it there and does something with his idleness, he makes his idleness "useful" and a platform to talk about and argue for and against things, but still, it is fair to say that if there's any author who's a counterexample here, it's probably Wilde.

Still, I don't think he's a fully counterexample, and I think literature SHOULD be useful...not necessarily in 1-to-1 teachings of morals and ethics and all of that (that tends to lead to overly-patronizing and pretty boring reads anyway) but you can still create a work of literature that's "useful" and argues for and against things and still layer it enough and include enough nuance that the reader's allowed to draw their own conclusions and, as a result, literature DOES end up serving some social utility, it's not just "art for art's sake" (which I'd again say, in my own personal taste, is the kind of art that I usually end up liking the least or outright disliking...If you want to be experimental with literature and art, that's fine, but don't just take a few eggs and hurl them randomly against a canvas and call that a masterpiece on par with Picasso if only I "interpret it" according to your "feelings" or my "feelings," and definitely don't write a one-word "poem" and claim it's as good as any ode or sonnet. THAT is art for art's sake taken to the extreme, and it's not a good or, indeed, useful extreme at all...and I'd think most people would prefer a Picasso or Monet to an egg-soaked canvas--and there's a reason why.)
krellin (80 DX)
08 Nov 13 UTC
Please tell me, other than pure entertainment, what useful insight do you gather from Lord of the Rings? Please do this *without* pretending to be an English Professor who knows every meal and fart of Tolkein, and therefore thinks he knows what deep message is embedded in LoTR. Because for 99% of the readers, it's a kick-ass fantasy adventure story with no social commentary ... in fact, if there was an overt social commentary it would most likely **take away** from the simple pleasure of the escapism this *meaningless* story provides the reader.

You are simply wrong, Obi.
krellin (80 DX)
08 Nov 13 UTC
....correction...unless by "USEFUL" you mean "the literature provides purely for the entertainment of the reader". This, to me, is useful.
steephie22 (182 D(S))
08 Nov 13 UTC
You can consider any book useful, you can consider any book just for amusement.

I'll use the most popular book ever as an example to prove my point: the bible.

I've always thought the hilarious irony of the bible makes it a good book, although the very existence obviously hurts more than it helps because people think it should be taken as fact or anything but the most genious satire ever, causing them to go on crusades and what not...

dipplayer2004 (1110 D)
08 Nov 13 UTC
(+1)
The Lord of the Rings is an attempt to create an Epic Story for the English. Tolkien felt that England did not have an epic story, an Iliad, a Roland, or a Nibelungenlied. His work celebrates the English people and the English countryside: what else are the Shire and the Hobbits?

But like all art, you can read it on multiple levels.
dipplayer2004 (1110 D)
08 Nov 13 UTC
Literature has many uses. To entertain, to instruct, to provide commentary, to provide an escape, to illuminate the human condition, to titillate, or to simply express the joy of language.
krellin (80 DX)
08 Nov 13 UTC
(+1)
dipplayer - If you read "The Lord of the Rings" in its original Klingon form, you would realize that is it not, in fact, about the English countryside. You are applying your own personal bias.
SYnapse (0 DX)
08 Nov 13 UTC
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/01/does-great-literature-make-us-better/?_r=0
dipplayer2004 (1110 D)
08 Nov 13 UTC
krellin, you so cray-cray.
Dharmaton (2398 D)
08 Nov 13 UTC
I predict that we must separate fantasy from Sci-Fi
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiMzZ8-Ebq0
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
08 Nov 13 UTC
(+3)
Did you know?

Yurtle the Turtle is Adolf Hitler.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
08 Nov 13 UTC
(+2)
I read a very interesting article in Science last week that talked about how literature helped train a number of skills, such as empathy, seeing things from multiple perspectives, etc.
krellin (80 DX)
08 Nov 13 UTC
Dharmaton -- I generally do regard Sci-fi and fantasy as separate genres.
BengalGrrl (146 D)
09 Nov 13 UTC
All I can say is it should be useful in that it is not mindless prattle and crap...you know like Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey. Beyond that...most literature is pretty okay by me.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
09 Nov 13 UTC
"Please tell me, other than pure entertainment, what useful insight do you gather from Lord of the Rings? Please do this *without* pretending to be an English Professor who knows every meal and fart of Tolkein, and therefore thinks he knows what deep message is embedded in LoTR."

OK. Can do.

I can give you not one but two basic ways in which LOTR can be useful/valuable--

1. You could argue there's a very basic good vs. evil, sacrifice, and--to get slightly English major-y on you for a second--the whole "No man is an island...any man's death diminishes me Because I am involved in mankind" sort of theme of "We're all in it together" which you see in everything from religion to modern war films...so, when a kid starts reading LOTR, and learns these themes, he's learning some of the same things John Donne and Ernest Hemingway, to pick just two, were very keen about. A kid learns not only basic morals, but morals which--whether he knows it or not--other authors throughout history wrote about, and so he or she is now not only primed for those works of literature when they encounter them, but indeed, they may be compelled to seek them out, leading me to...

2. The fact most English majors--myself included--don't come out of the womb quoting Shakespeare. You start somewhere. I really liked King Arthur before I first got into Shakespeare, and before I liked King Arthur I liked not only Greek mythology, but Harry Potter, too...and I obviously watched Star Wars when I was younger, hence the name. I don't think most here would argue Homer, Shakespeare, and King Arthur's generally considered to be more "literary" than Harry Potter or Star Wars, but still, kids have to get interested and start somewhere. LOTR is maybe too tough for kids--though I prefer to believe in the potential of a smart kid than lump him in with a group and just assume no one in the class is smart or patient enough to tackle one of Tolkien's huge tomes--but for teens, certainly, it can be a good introduction and "way in" to other, more literary texts in the same way that I went from Star Wars and Greek mythology books to Shakespeare and TS. Eliot. You won't GET Shakespeare and you definitely won't get Eliot if you don't have an understanding of the Classics, and so you need to read those first...but just reading about Greeks 2,000 years ago can get boring, so maybe you want to take a break when you're a kid and read Harry Potter, and every so often Rowling includes a reference to some Greek mythology, and you smile because YOU GET THAT, or else you open up Google and look up what it is she's referencing...and if it interests you, maybe you look into THAT more.

If marijuana's a "gateway drug," Harry Potter and LOTR are gateway books. ;)
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
09 Nov 13 UTC
@krellin GRR Martin has interesting opinions about that... I'm inclined to agree with him. lemme see if I can find the thing.... yeah it's in his short story compilation Dragonsongs (worth reading, btw)...

Anyways he's pretty much of the opinion that Sci fi is just fantasy in space (and both are fairly indistinguishable from westerns) ... the only real difference is that sci fi offers up fancy explanations for the strange and unusual.
krellin (80 DX)
09 Nov 13 UTC
Obi...fine....ANY piece of writing, art, music, ANYTHING is a persons reflection of the human condition in one sense and therefore is social commentary BLAH BLAH BLAH....yeah Iget it, good v evil blah blah blah.

OR it's just a cool tory about elves and dwarves and talking trees and just a lot of fun to escape reality, and Imreally won't learn a Damned Hing about how to cope with REAL evil in the world by reading LOTR.
Let it go, seriously. Not everything MUST have a great purpose, and it is English Majot snobs like you that sometimes ruin literature for normal human beings.

For the record, Honors-level English courses in college, and I *was* an English major for a semester. I found the department to be chock full of prtentious boobery and self-important wanna-be's...
krellin (80 DX)
09 Nov 13 UTC
YJ ok I can see that. For that matter all stories..all GOOD stories anyway...are all about relationships, regardless of setting. When I volunteer taught an English class I had my students re-write a story in a completely different setting to demonstrate this point - that the story was characters and relationships, regardless of time, place, technology, etc.

But I still think setting is important, and that i-fi is distinct from fantasy...and that is simply from the way in which I enjoy on vs the other. Sometimes I NEED tomread about spaceships'to be amused, and sometimes I NEED a wizard casting fireballs to perfectly escape the drudgery of my day.

Other days I come here and call you all fucktards. lol
dipplayer2004 (1110 D)
09 Nov 13 UTC
I guess I see LOTR as a bad example, krellin. It is on a higher level IMO than, say, the Drizzt novels by Salvatore.
krellin (80 DX)
09 Nov 13 UTC
OK...fine....P. Anthony Xanth novels. No socially redeeming value at all, but certainly kind of punny fantasy escapism. The Misenchante Sword....another silly, well written fantasy novel of no redeeming value other than amusement. John Stakley's Armor....good sci-fi that I've re-read time and time again, and it has taught me zip nadda nothing about life, but I love the shit out of that book.

Good literature must amuse me, period. I do not need to grow as a person with every reading...and frankly I don't want to.
dipplayer2004 (1110 D)
09 Nov 13 UTC
Agreed.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
09 Nov 13 UTC
Oh, I don't know...

I could say Exodus is just a cool story with magic and miracles and pharoahs and rebellion and a kind of neat Burning Bush and all that crazy stuff...

And that IT doesn't have anything to teach us about "real evil" or about what is and isn't moral and how we should act and so on and so on.

But it seems to me that's a story we're pretty keen on attaching value to...and it's no more fantastic than LOTR--unless you want to say a mystical omnipotent being, burning bushes, seas parting and calling on that being to rain frogs and locusts and all manner of other plagues on Egypt is somehow more plausible than four fat hobbits on their way to destroy a magic ring of power with Vigo Mortensen, Sean "I Always Die" Bean and Ian "I'm a Fucking Badass" McKellan?

Really, you'd rather just say "it's just a fun story, it has no value beyond that" and move on and give the author and the audience LESS credit, rather than my arguments?

(I might add that just because you can't get more from it doesn't mean there isn't more to be had from it--I think I've stated my opinion that stories like those in 1 Samuel are genocidal and wrong...but one person's interpretation and opinion doesn't shape a culture's view of a piece...it takes decades or even centuries for a work's value to be felt and determined...and if it's notable, chances are it's still debated even then--Jane Austen's place in the Canon is secure, but plenty, myself included, still take issue with her "and they married and all lived happily ever after" approach which happens too often in her works, and to leave the realm of English majoring, how many different times has the BIBLE been reinterpreted different ways, leading to everything from defenses of and attacks on slavery to entire wars, written in ink or blood? People fight over the Bible because, true or not, it MATTERS to them, and it matters to everyone, even atheists, because not only do we have to deal with it when we live in a country where certain parties--*cough, Tea Party, cough*--are radically religious and make that very apparent in their stance, but we have to come to grips with the fact our cultural past is wrapped up in something that's the work of flawed men and has led to bloodshed from even more flawed men. Literature matters and literature has its uses...and good literature is NEVER just "a lot of fun to escape reality." If you're escaping reality, there's a reason, and the author has a reason, and has views on reality he or she is commenting on--and whether you choose to accept that or not is your own deal. But good literature isn't "just" entertainment, and Tolkien's works are, at the very least, "good" literature.)
krellin (80 DX)
09 Nov 13 UTC
Obi....A GREAT NUMBER of people attach ZERO redeeming value to Exodus. And for those that do, half of them have probably never even read it through.

Terrible argument...
krellin (80 DX)
09 Nov 13 UTC
Also, I never said ALL literature has no redeeming value. I said it does not have to include great human insight and life-altering wisdom to be great literature....especiallysince the judgement of literature is completely subjective, as is the term "useful".

Back to the OP....what the fuck is useful, and who are you to judge usefulness?
dipplayer2004 (1110 D)
09 Nov 13 UTC
(+1)
""certain parties--*cough, Tea Party, cough*--are radically religious""

No. The Tea Party is about fiscal responsibility, libertarianism, small government, opposition to bailouts, etc. Practically no religious component.
krellin (80 DX)
09 Nov 13 UTC
LOTR -- changed my life not a whit. I am no better or worse a human for having read it, other than when I walked in the woods with my children I would make up stories of elves and dwarves in the woods..but that could also be because I played a lotod D&D as a child.

I honestly find it kind of sad that you think everything must have great meaning, instead of letting some things just wash over you for the purpose of pleasure. It strikes of personal emptiness..of someone grasping for self-meaning...Seriously, dude, just chill.
Mujus (1495 D(B))
09 Nov 13 UTC
Hebrews 4:12, New Living Translation:
For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.

No, that's not just "a lot of fun to escape reality," is it? But some literature is written to make money, and is read purely as an escape from reality. Paperback romance novels come to mind.
krellin (80 DX)
09 Nov 13 UTC
Mujus - for you it is that. For me it may or may not be - Im not here todiscuss my religion with you.

For half the world that is NOT Christian, it is meaningless. And for half the Christians who sit in Sunday School and get watered down stories and never *actually* study their Bible, the word of God is pablum, and that sword is as dull as a rock.

But this thread isn't about the Bible and whether it is "literature" ( I'm certain God does not wish HIS WORD to be in equalmdiscussion with LOTR, by the way. It's not literature.it is truth, is it not?) I think this OP makes the assertion that no piece of writing has value to Obi unless he can derive some great meaning and 'usefulness' from it. That is patently absurd, and a completely subjective point of view.
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
09 Nov 13 UTC
"For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires."
Oh yes how true ...... remember the Crusades when the Christians slaughtered thousands if not millions, I feel the Christian West never really stopped the Crusades, they just got updated and re-branded. You never hear churches preaching against war, just blessing our brave soldiers for losing their lives to protect our christian way of life .... as fewer and fewer would say, a price worth paying
krellin (80 DX)
09 Nov 13 UTC
(+1)
Of course, for the last six years Imhaven't heard Code Pink or any Democrats preaching against war either, including our once-dove President...

And Nigee....I'm under the impression that you don't spend much time *IN* any church listening to what any preacher has to say about war, let alone any other topic...


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117 replies
SantaClausowitz (360 D)
10 Nov 13 UTC
Why can't we get a live game going?
It's really tough recently
2 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 DX)
11 Nov 13 UTC
The Law
Ever been in trouble with the law? Been to court?

I've had 2 cases, 1 criminal and 1 civil, both of which I won. You guys?
30 replies
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flag (0 DX)
03 Nov 13 UTC
(+2)
whats the deal
seems like there is a lot of banning going on here whats up with that

never been banned from any other forums but this one is totalitarian in ways hitler and stalin would have dreamed about
20 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
08 Nov 13 UTC
NFL Pick 'em: Week 10--The Niners/Bears w/ Reinforcements & the Pack w/o Rodgers!
We start Week 10 tonight with the Redskins and Vikings...but I'll just assume we're all picking the REDSKINS (and now watch the Vikings play spoiler, lol.) Da Bears have Jay Cutler back and will be going up against Suh and the Lions for 1st place in the NFC North, and with Aaron Rodgers gone 4-6 weeks, this could be the Lions' big chance. The Niners get Manningham and Aldon Smith back vs. the Panthers, Bengals/Ravens, Broncos/Chargers, it's Week 10--PICK 'EM!
7 replies
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Jamiet99uk (808 D)
10 Nov 13 UTC
Masters Round 7 Game 1
We're still waiting for one player to join. Whoever it is, hurry the fuck up.
11 replies
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Brewmachine (104 D)
11 Nov 13 UTC
(+2)
FUCK YOU GUYS
just....fuck you all its a distaction conspiracy and i dont like it but i do im sorry just stop the bitch let porn on forum as well as blankflag /sorry #dont_silence_me
12 replies
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