Word Octavious. Word.

Lol, they actually are. You don't know much about Iran do you?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/14/world/meast/egypt-protests/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Oh, I'm sorry that the United States government says nothing, Nigee.

Crawl back into your hole please and stay out of the Middle East.

<waves fingers In front of your face> This is not the military coup you are looking for. This is just a peaceful democracy. Move along....move along...

But hey -- we got our American trained General in charge again - things are looking up in Egypt! Keep that military aide a'rollin in! We'll use Egypt as a test bed for new weapons and tactics...

Yeah I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Everyone who saw today's news was rightly saddened. Innocent people dying is a global shame.

But I'm not sure what one can do about it... replacing one authoritarian government for another is not what the Egyptians in 2011 died for, and agitating for democracy is certainly sometimes worth the loss of life, even if the killings involved are inexcusable.

That said I think this is more of a army vs. MB issue, I hope the people of Egypt see that and take their country for themselves.

'Pivotal moment' for Egypt, says US Secretary of State

Never heard the mass murder of innocent protesters 'pivotal' before.

Well, you know, John Kerry is a Viet Nam veteran and all...so....you know....he's...er....quite serious and...uh....he shot himself in the foot and...uh....man that hurt...and....have you seen him wind surf lately? He's so cool....

Tiananmen square was referred to as pivotal as well. What would you call that?

Apparently the US are to re-think the US$1.3bn military aid they give to Egypt every year, which begs the question ..... why are the US govt giving this money to the Egyptian govt ??

http://begthequestion.info/

I apologise for my pedantry.

It sounds like the UN are absolutely outraged by the massacre:-
The office of UN chief Ban Ki-moon said he regretted that Egyptian authorities had chosen to use force to respond to the demonstrations.
Mr Ban was "well aware that the vast majority of the Egyptian people want their country to go forward peacefully in an Egyptian-led process towards prosperity and democracy," a statement said.

David Cameron is equally furious about the situation:-
British Prime Minister David Cameron said the violence was "not going to solve anything".
"What is required in Egypt is a genuine transition to a genuine democracy. That means compromise from all sides," he said.

I can't help but think their responses would not be so tame if the Muslim Brotherhood were gunning down innocent people in the streets. I thought all these leaders supported democracy...... we would be threatening intervention if the show was on the other foot.

show s/be shoe

@Nbaby, the US gives Egypt military aid because:

a) Egypt agreed not to become a part of the USSR
b) Egypt agreed not to invade Israel (again)
c) Egypt agreed to support American policy in the middle east
d) The US likes to use money to make allies and spread it's corporate-imperial ambitions.

pick any of the above.

@Ora - that was a bit rhetorical I have to admit. Of course it is a way of having a say by giving the govt in power large amounts of money, even better if you give them arms.
What would be more interesting is a list of the countries in the Middle East the US does not give military aid to.

@ora - I pick e) all of the above.

:-)

@military aid, i presume the US gets the money back and when it is spent on US weapons. Which helps secure the US as the biggest arms exporter in the world, and I guess does something for the local economy... (odd thing is, Germany is the second biggest exporter of weapons, while the rest of the top 6 are the 5 permanent security council members)

You know what, I'm not sure they do get the money back ...... I think it is seen as an 'investment'.

Be constructive Nigee - what do you want UK/US/EU/UN to do?

YEah, NBaby, it is an investment in from the US government (tax-payers) in the US arms industry. (so it pays for contracts from weapons makers, some of whom may spend that money on lobbying/campaign contributions...) They just give egypt the F-16s

"Be constructive Nigee - what do you want UK/US/EU/UN to do?"
Just to be fair ...... to treat other nations as they expect to be treated themselves.
To stop trying to exert pressure and destabilize governments and countries because they don't share the same religion or political ideology.
To honour and act upon the resolutions they pass, not just the one that says it is Ok to invade Iraq ......
To behave more like Jesus and less like King Herod.

@ Ora - you make a good point about the money merry go round.
Of course if the US govt keeps playing the game and that it is great for the arms industry but may lead to long-term US govt debt.
The miracle of free-market capitalism is only sustainable if somebody pays for the goods you produce, if you keep giving them away for you there will come a day of reckoning.
Are there any US tax payers unhappy with these foreign 'gifts' or is it viewed as money well spent?

http://news.yahoo.com/death-toll-egypt-violence-rises-525-110300357.html

Looks like it's only going to get worse...

And neither side is really one I can support.

On the one hand, it is 100% WRONG to kill protesters in the fashion the military is doing right now...

On the other hand...I can't support the Muslim Brotherhood.

That does *NOT* mean that they should be shot, but at the same time, I have a hard time feeling genuine sympathy for a group that's vocally anti-Israel, anti-US, anti-West, and the sort of Islamic radical group that flies in the face of everything that I think a lot of Westerners value.

It's not at all an exact parallel, to be sure--

But if feels like if the US government were firing on KKK protesters.

It's wrong to kill them...but on the other hand...I really can't support people who'd like to see me and millions like me shot...that they'd like to see ME dead makes it a bit harder for me to sympathize with their being shut out of government proceedings.

Also--Octavious is as ever awesome in his reply.

@Obi - replace religion for humanity - how can the murder of protesters in this fashion be justifiable. Your attitude is as exactly the same as the Western leaders 'we don't like the Muslim Brotherhood' so we'll be very circumspect in our reply, as one commentator said 'a limp response'.
Violence begets violence, how can you urge peace whilst mowing down unarmed protesters campaigning for a legitimate cause.
You Liberals talk about human rights and democracy, and then go all soppy in the face of extreme genocidal behaviour..... that's why the world is in a mess.

I'm sure Obama cashes in his votes from the kind of people addicted to the luxury of venting "protests".

Add this item to Orathaic's list
f) The political elite mobilize popular support posing as champions of "human rights", and "Democracy", encouraging idealistic, heroical speechifying both left and right in every European/American home, Everyman getting an opportunity to his superior understanding of how all the worlds conflicts and sufferings should be resolutely dealt with (=protested against).
The US invests in "military aid" letting it land and sprinkle here and there because an e.g. Islamist with no machine gun is not a very graphical enemy, not as fun to fear and hate.
Escalate as much conflict as possible - make your own smiling home champion of peace as grand a hero as possible.

Ron Paul's message is the only sincere stance I've seen coming across in big media: No need for more bull, just quit paying for stuff and they will have to stop happening.

I see Nigee made, as I was writing my post, much the same point as me... I think...

Edit: ...an opportunity to display his superior understanding...

I get that the US government (I'm not blaming the people! Only the ones supporting the government in this) only cares about establishing and strenghtening power bases and all, but what happened to the rest of the world? We're not all that corrupt are we? I mean, I understand China and Russia are too busy preventing American dominance and having their own problems to take care with and India has problems enough as well, and it goes on like that for a while, but what happened to the other countries? European countries? Australia (although that's a bit far away for this particular problem)? Surely we've realised by now the US doesn't care about what we think, but only about what we do? Why do we let them mess up the Middle-East like this? That's what I don't understand. And how about the American people? Do they accept the fact that their government is messing with the Middle-East?

I'm sure a lot of you think my reasoning here is stupid and all, but surely you get the sentiment? Why does everyone just let them legally cross the Atlantic to screw around? I mean, if they would help, sure, but the last time they were really effectively helping us was 1945 as far as I know, and that was arguably out of self-interest as well.

(I'm not anti-America, not even very anti-American government, I mean, there are few governments that aren't fucked up, but I just don't understand why no one stands up to corruption causing trouble on global scale.)

At last Obama speaks ..... he must be reading Webdip :-)