Just the simple "accept Christ as your savior and find eternal life" concept. The whole "Jesus died for your sins one."

Some people, especially Catholics, seem to believe that despite this central tenet, they still might not make it to heaven if they're huge douche-bags or don't give enough money to charities or something.

Admittedly from a consequentialist perspective I don't want to do too much to discourage that belief because it would undoubtedly result in more material goodness in the world, however, in terms of theology, I think they're kind of wrong. But as I said in my last post, I don't think they know they're wrong, they've just not realized that works are not part of the picture in terms of whether you have salvation.

Then again maybe they do know. Aren't there some windbags out there who think only like 144,000 people will ever be in heaven? Haha. What a dumb thing to say. Almost as bad as the Shakers prohibiting procreation. Not exactly a recipe for your sect's survival...

I think that's the Jehovah's Witnesses.

The savation concept being a mystery is probably exactly what 0ri0n mentioned, Why should the omnipotent creator of everything really care about saving me, much less giving his son to be crucified and sent to Hell for three days for the purpose of doing so. That's a mystery inasmuch as nobody could possibly answer it but God Himself. Kind of like if I ask you how you're feeling, I don't know. That's kind of why I was asking in the first place.

"Just the simple 'accept Christ as your savior and find eternal life' concept."

Jesus was a cool dude, but I'm not buying the "eternal life" thing.

"The whole 'Jesus died for your sins one.'"

To appease an insane god that I don't accept the existence of?

"Some people, especially Catholics, seem to believe that despite this central tenet, they still might not make it to heaven if they're huge douche-bags or don't give enough money to charities or something."

Or give in to their lustful desires or smoke pot or something. Still don't get why any deity would give half a shit about those things.

"Admittedly from a consequentialist perspective I don't want to do too much to discourage that belief because it would undoubtedly result in more material goodness in the world, however, in terms of theology, I think they're kind of wrong. But as I said in my last post, I don't think they know they're wrong, they've just not realized that works are not part of the picture in terms of whether you have salvation."

So people who have never heard of Christianity don't get to go to heaven? God has to rely on human means of communication even with all the divine inspiration he's allegedly able to throw around (without said inspiration being independently verifiable)?

"Then again maybe they do know. Aren't there some windbags out there who think only like 144,000 people will ever be in heaven? Haha. What a dumb thing to say. Almost as bad as the Shakers prohibiting procreation. Not exactly a recipe for your sect's survival..."

Yeah, that's almost as dumb as claiming that an allegedly all-powerful god would need to guilt-trip the world into obedience by having his own virgin-born son murdered.

@Thucydides: Catholics don't believe that that works balance out sins on some sort of scale. Rather we believe that if we have in your terms accepted Christ as Savior, than how we live our lives has to be consistent with his teaching. Faith without action isn't alive, and you can't simply profess Christ as your personal savior, and then go back to living in sin. See Matt 25:31-46 as biblical support for this point.

And if people who have never heard of Christianity get a free pass if they live decent lives, then Christian missionaries are responsible for condemning billions of souls to hell and should cut that shit out.

Bro, I am just telling you what Christians believe. The appropriate response is: "Okay thanks for letting me know."

After you say that, the appropriate reaction is to shut the fuck up and keep your argumentative thoughts to yourself, unless it's a debate thread, which by the way THIS IS NOT AT ALL. (SEE OP FOR PROOF)


.........anyway.



@kreilly I guess, but doesn't that still imply that if you become Christian but then kill a dude you're going to hell? The teachings I'm familiar with are categorical in that any sin, great or small, will not impede you from getting to heaven if you truly accept and believe in Jesus' sacrifice. The only sin for which you will be sent to hell is not accepting. Do Catholics believe that or not?

Of course all Christians (or most, save some Gnostics from back in the day) teach that in spite of this one should try their best to do good works. If they appear to make no effort, people will seriously question the sincerity of your profession of faith. The idea is that works are an outward sign and natural consequence of true belief.

I think sometimes people hear the whole "murderers can still go to heaven" thing and think - well what's to stop me from just saying some prayer and then forgetting about it? The answer Christians give is defined in terms of what I just said.

AWB, "So people who have never heard of Christianity don't get to go to heaven?"

Two possible answers here. One theological answer is derived from Hebrews 11, where the author is crediting pre-Jesus figures with righteousness by their faith. So, the implication is, if someone has never heard of Christ nor Christianity, then they can still have righteousness through faith, they just have a very incomplete picture to believe in.

Alternatively, yes, people who have never heard of Christ go to hell making mission trips all the more imperative.

Of course, there are also stories (that I won't bother looking up, because I don't believe) where the woman in the obscure Chinese village has a vision of Christ in a dream and starts preaching to the village so when the missionaries show up, they are surprised to find Christians and not pagans. meh.

It's the Christians that get a free pass though, Didn't you read Thucy's post about it? Once saved you're golden, living a decent life can mean a lot of things. The answer to the question can a person be saved outside of Christianity is usually "I don't know". It is pretty safe that they aren't condemning, lot of times they're showing up with good water and a construction crew.

http://www.cmaid.org/aid-relief/

"Of course, there are also stories (that I won't bother looking up, because I don't believe) where the woman in the obscure Chinese village has a vision of Christ in a dream and starts preaching to the village so when the missionaries show up, they are surprised to find Christians and not pagans. meh."

Yes I have heard (from my dad lolz) a similar story about some people in Saudi Arabia who are, like, clandestine Christians.

Also I think the more popular version, certainly the one I've heard, is that the ignorant do go to heaven, as well as children who are too young to truly understand the Gospel.

However I think some people think that those people's souls just ceased to exist, or are in some kind of purgatory where they have a chance to accept or deny. I think at least some Christians believe that all people regardless of who they are are at some point given a chance to reject God and go to hell.

Heyyyy speaking of that, I have my own question for the Christians - do you believe that, if I died tomorrow as a Christian and showed up to heaven, I could ask God to send me to hell and remove one of the damned in exchange? Anyone will do, just a one-for-one random trade.

Would he allow that, in your opinion?

@Thucydides For us sin as an action has consequences to the community, ourselves and God. For us confessing our sins to a priest is the equivalent of confessing them to all affected parties, with the priest standing in for God, as we believe priests to be in the person of Christ, as well as the community. Along with that we have to truly be sorry for the sins we are confessing, and intend to not commit them again. Getting back to your point on whether we think Catholics can go to hell: We believe that sins that are mortal, namely sins that are grave in nature, and committed with full knowledge of it being a sin and being grave in nature and committed with full consent, if you haven't repented of them cause you to go to Hell. Now we could get into a whole debate whether if you are truly sorry for the mortal sins, but haven't gotten to Confession yet is sufficient, but that is overly exact in my mind, and what is previously stated gives the core of our views on sin and damnation/salvation

I also have a whole bunch of other theological questions that I used to ask in church and people would just get annoyed with me and say "that would never happen" and I ask, okay, maybe not, but could it? Lol. Never got a straight answer, not even a "I don't know."

I've always annoyed older, wiser people by asking endless "Is it possible that" and "What if" type questions. I still think they're pretty good questions though. Many of them have to do with the nature of God and/or omnipotence. A smattering:

1) Could God kill himself?
2) Could God limit his own power intentionally? In the same way that I might contractually bind my future self to do something?
3) Is this universe really the best possible one that could have been devised? Equal with all other possibilities, or what?
4) Could God have been created by an even more powerful being? An equally powerful being? Along the same lines, could God clone himself and create another omnipotent being? If not, how powerful a being could God create?
5) Could God not lie to humans? I know that the teaching is that he is all good and never would do such a thing, but does anyone ever acknowledge the possibility? Personally, if I were an extremely powerful but not quite omnipotent being, I would find it pretty tempting to tell my pathetic cowering creations that I was omnipotent and all-good. Why not, right? Relatedly, what is your opinion of the Satanist belief that it is actually God who is evil and Satan who is good (Promethean figure, usually)? Nonsense?

Anyway, enough subversion. The Christians on this site get enough of that. Just love asking those. I think they're kind of fun to think/talk about.

"Heyyyy speaking of that, I have my own question for the Christians - do you believe that, if I died tomorrow as a Christian and showed up to heaven, I could ask God to send me to hell and remove one of the damned in exchange? Anyone will do, just a one-for-one random trade.

Would he allow that, in your opinion?"

It is certainly kind of you, but I think it goes against the idea of Hell as I understand it. It isn't some celestial torture chamber that God locks you in. You're pretty much there by choice.

My entirely non-scriptural take on it is why can't they be the same place. "CS Lewis wrote about the Lights of Heaven being the fires of Hell". Take for instance a huge party where everybody is having a great time and you are that person who feels really out of place and is determined to be miserable. It's your choice. You were invited, and people really want you there. The problem os Purgatory is solve pretty quickly at that point. They're the people that showed up and were really uptight, but ended up loosening up and having a great time.

It's about more than just "going to heaven." It's about living as a disciple of Jesus, walking the path he walked, building the Kingdom of God in this world.

I guess I think of Hell as when someone who is so entirely caught up in being miserable that they never think to look up and accept or even see that help is offered.

Kind of like that diplomacy player that really is trying to help you out, but you just didn't believe him enough to cooperate, or stabbed him because you thought it was going to happen to you anyway.

"Heyyyy speaking of that, I have my own question for the Christians - do you believe that, if I died tomorrow as a Christian and showed up to heaven, I could ask God to send me to hell and remove one of the damned in exchange? Anyone will do, just a one-for-one random trade.

Would he allow that, in your opinion?"

No, you have to be blameless to be able to buy anyone's way out of Hell.

Re the torture question, here's a link to a Stuart Townend song called "How Deep the Father's Love for Us" that mentions God the Father turning his face away from Jesus. I came to Jesus through mental gyrations and questioning everything, but I know that some take a more direct path by letting God speak to their spirit, and this song does just that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV2zMZ-nZ7k

Yeah like, what if I told God, I understand your sacrifice for me and accept it graciously but request that you confer the benefits on someone else, and confer the consequences of the other person's choice on me.

I also understand that it is about more than going to heaven. I am just curious if my attempts at place-trading would be heard by God. It's no longer applicable to me since if Christianity is true I'm going to hell anyway, but I wondered it a lot back when I was Christian.

Anglican, what a profound view of Hell! Dipplayer, of course you are correct. Once we are saved/accept God's gift of salvation (free for us but paid for by Jesus), the rest of our lives is about learning to walk closer to Jesus, to learn his teachings, to follow his commands. I'm not too familiar with the verse, but I've read that good works can earn us crowns in heaven, if we're already saved--but in Revelations, we see everyone throwing their crowns down in front of Jesus anyway. Paul talks about competition--winning the race, etc.--and I know that motivates some people, basically striving to be the best you can--but no matter how hard we try, we can't get to God by our good works.
Krelly, I guess the point is whether we can confess our sins directly to God, which we can--but the Bible also says "Confess your sins freely one to another," so I see where the Catholics are coming from on that point. And I don't think a Catholic would say that someone's going to Hell just because he couldn't get to a priest in time to confess his last sins. There are many differences in interpretation and practice among Christian churches, but at root we are all at the feet of Jesus.

Yeah I think I agree, why would your sacrifice of yourself be necessary when they had Christ's sacrifice and rejected that?

It's kind of like saying "Dad I'd like to change places with my brother John who stormed out and yelled he never wanted to see you again" Why would he make you both miserable? Him by forcing him to live for all eternity with a Being he's specifically rejected and you for unfairly sending you away when you're a good kid.

Yeah that's good point about "walikng closer to God" it is a process. That's why I don't buy the cosmic dictator/ bully crating us with free will and punishing us for using it idea. Hell is the ultimate act of free-will, it is choosing to reject God.

To put it in secular terms, thirty or so years ago I walked into a Tae-Kwon-Do class. I kept going and listened to the instructors and practiced. I could have walked away at any time and would have been a different (and I think a lot less happy) person than I am now. One consequence would be probably never meeting my wife or having those kids. The point was that I showed up to class, practiced, and got better. That's basically church in a nutshell.

Thucy, wow, lemme try, since "I don't know" is a permitted option. ;-)

1) Could God kill himself?

I don't know, but he came down and was born as the man, Jesus, who died for the sins of the world.

2) Could God limit his own power intentionally? In the same way that I might contractually bind my future self to do something?

I think he can do anything that doesn't contradict his own nature. And as Jesus, he put off the blinding glory of the godhead and walked among us in a way that we could see, touch, listen to--and kill.

3) Is this universe really the best possible one that could have been devised? Equal with all other possibilities, or what?

Growing up, I always thought I could do better, but the older I get, the more I realize that I have to trust God that yes, he really does know what he's doing, and he's doing it out of love.

4) Could God have been created by an even more powerful being? An equally powerful being? Along the same lines, could God clone himself and create another omnipotent being? If not, how powerful a being could God create?

God is one being, but he appears in three persons. And White Boy, *that's* a mystery!

5) Could God not lie to humans? I know that the teaching is that he is all good and never would do such a thing, but does anyone ever acknowledge the possibility? Personally, if I were an extremely powerful but not quite omnipotent being, I would find it pretty tempting to tell my pathetic cowering creations that I was omnipotent and all-good. Why not, right? Relatedly, what is your opinion of the Satanist belief that it is actually God who is evil and Satan who is good (Promethean figure, usually)? Nonsense?

Hmmm, kind of a three-part question, really--Were you hurrying up to get the last ones in? lol But... We see in the Bible that Jesus speaks in parables so that those who are seeking knowledge will understand. Is that lying? We also see that the demons, and Satan himself, believe in God--"and tremble." And we have the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden, and we all know what happened when Adam and Eve tasted *that* fruit. Conclusion: Too much knowledge isn't always good, but I don't know why, unless it can lead to pride, which was Satan's sin after all. Those are all good questions with no easy answers though, and I'm just sharing my own limited take on the answers.

It is placing an ideal in front of you (Christ Like behavior) and "saying go get it". When you inevitably fall short it is having a community of support saying "ok let's dust you off and forgive you. You straight? Now go get it again."

It doesn't matter how close you get; it's important that you strive.

And yeah, an interesting thought about Satan, but in the end, nonsense.

CA, I like your Tae Kwon Do example.

1) Could God kill himself?

He did; didn't he, then brought himself back?

2) Could God limit his own power intentionally? In the same way that I might contractually bind my future self to do something?

That's kind of free-will isn't it? He can make all of our choices for us, but doesn't.

3) Is this universe really the best possible one that could have been devised? Equal with all other possibilities, or what?

It depends upon for what purpose it was devised. What if it is a classroom where we are to learn to take care of, love, and help one another. Isn't there ample opportunity for that in your opinion?

4) Could God have been created by an even more powerful being? An equally powerful being? Along the same lines, could God clone himself and create another omnipotent being? If not, how powerful a being could God create?

As far as God's God? how knows? I think he could certainly clone Himself into as many as he'd like. To what end? What purpose is served by populating a Universe with all-powerful creators who have nothing to do?

5) Could God not lie to humans? I know that the teaching is that he is all good and never would do such a thing, but does anyone ever acknowledge the possibility? Personally, if I were an extremely powerful but not quite omnipotent being, I would find it pretty tempting to tell my pathetic cowering creations that I was omnipotent and all-good. Why not, right?

Could Yes, would no. That's faith. If He exists and is lying, then what hope is there for any of us? We're in a universe truly set up to defeat.


Relatedly, what is your opinion of the Satanist belief that it is actually God who is evil and Satan who is good (Promethean figure, usually)? Nonsense?

"Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the earth"

"Cursed are the weak for they shall inherit the yoke"

I embrace the one and reject the other willingly.

So how does someone become a Christian? I was raised in a church but never accepted God's payment for my sins until late in high school, because I didn't know that my acceptance was part of the transaction. Then a Catholic friend of mine invited me to a nondenominational youth conference, where a man got up on stage and said that if anyone there had never accepted Jesus payment for our sins for ourselves, to go out somewhere alone and talk to him and tell him that you accept the gift. And that's all it takes to start out. That's it.

Then, talk to God every day, carve a quiet time out of each day for that relationship, find a place where you can learn more about the Christian walk--a Bible study, a prayer group, a church, but always asking God to guide you to the place where you can learn.