Listen moron. I am interested in the opinion of mature people.

If you at least had the grammar skills and logic to capitalize where where it mattered you might have figured it out. I agree it's a stimulation of WAR, I agree the goal is to WIN. I am arguing the goal is not to KILL people in order to DRAW.

On a final note. How mental do you have to be to have such a strong opinion about winning and killing people. Do you think you have the relevant experience? :) We're not talking about how to score defeats here.

Have you considered your charming attitude and elaborate writing style may have something to do with it :P

This was for krellin, in case anyone had any doubts.

MM I agree with you. So, you're saying that in certain situations, maybe when playing strangers, you'd be willing to consider the draw I suggest? :)

I won't argue with you about the bastard part :)

Ivo --- you are a moron. Wait...let me capitalize the relative point: YOU are a MORON.

Is that clear enough.

I have a strong opinion on the matter because jackasses like you (lets find a way to come to an easy draw where everyone WINS!!!!! YAY!!!!) ruin competition. The game is about WINNING, NOT DRAWING.

The fact that you have chosen to address my capitalization instead of my argument indicates you have NO counter-argument.

And, why **shouldn't** the objecty be to kill someone else to draw? If I kill you, and then draw, then presumably my position in the eventual draw will be better.

We all know that you can achieve map positions in which you can force a draw. Why quit...because you see it coming...before eliminating everyone possible? Why would you NOT want to improve your own position AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE before you draw??

You idea makes NO sense at all...unless it is to spread the good cheer...or because you are too lazy to play a game out. Either way...it is just stupid.

By the way, jackass, funny that you AGREE with MM...who has AGREED WITH ME...and yet you say I am wrong. That pretty much makes you look like the moron...

@krellin: A draw means no one wins. If you yourself cannot win, your objective is to stop whomever else from winning.

Errr....uh.....DUHHHHH!!! But even in a draw, you are awarded points. I bet X webdip points and get X+Y when I draw. If I draw with 5 players still in play....I get (probably) fewer points than if I draw with 3 players left. What the fck is so hard to figure out about that?

Not only that, but you never know what sort of moves people will pull as you eliminate players and the remaining players look for an end-game option.

The whole concept you are pushing is to NOT win...but to find an easy-draw...which, again, is ANTI-THETICAL to the concept of winning~!

"GIVE ME A BREAK! I would rather lose a game tham agree to some damned 5 player draw!"

"A draw means no one wins. If you yourself cannot win, your objective is to stop whomever else from winning."

"Errr....uh.....DUHHHHH!!!"

...

"Jackaxx...by lose I mean be eliminated. How fucking stupid are you. For real...damm...

Eden....the bottom line is yo uwon't address the ACTUAL issue I have raised, because yo are pathetic and have no answer to it. Of course...*ultimately* I will win this debate because I sincerely doubt the programmers will EVER implement your stupid f*ing idea.


So...THERE...****I***** ***WIN****

Fck You! :)

@Krellin - 3 .1. I agree that I don't like the idea of a draw being anything but an even split.2. I disagree with your objective. The first objective of any game is to have fun. This isn't poker where real cash is on the line or international chess where a title and reputation are on the line. It's a game on a website.3. Your mouth is like a gaping asshole that a baseball bat was just pulled out of. Everyone here wants to shove the bat back in to shut you the fuck up. Your opinion isn't the problem. It's the specific way you express it.No less than Edi Birsan (a legend in the Diplomacy world since before you were born) has said he plays to have fun and will include a player in the final draw if he thinks the player earned it even if he has just 1 SC. You are no Edi and yet you express your opinion like it is gospel when it's just one of the smellier assholes of opinions on the site.

"Jackaxx...by lose I mean be eliminated. How fucking stupid are you. For real...damm..."

If you do not win, and someone else wins, then you lose. You agreed that a draw meant no one wins. If you do not win, and you do not draw, then, you lose - survive or eliminated doesn't matter. By the terms you accepted, no less. So don't call me "fucking stupid" when you are changing the definitions around from post to post at your leisure.

And what "ACTUAL issue" are you talking about? I haven't stated an opinion in favor or in opposition to this idea; in fact, I said "maybe," which is explicitly not to take a side. So there's nothing for you to "win," nor is this idea "my stupid f*ing idea."

Funny you mention saving a guy with one SC...because in a game recently I protected a player...surrounded him to my own detriment...who had only one SC to save him. I agree that individual games require individual action.

But the idea that we are to design a system to ENCOURAGE early draws is simply STUPID. I'm sorry (NOT!!!) if my open expression of my opinion offends you...but would you rather I play nice and be dishonest instead of being forthright?

In other words...all you other people are dishonest and don't truly express your full opinion in order to be nice? THAT, my friend, is stupid. I will never apologize for having the courage to openly express myself.

I am not immune to human emotion. Nor am I going to dumb down my opinion so as to not offend the weak of heart. This idea is stupid. If it is not, it will be implemented, and I will be shamed. I have NO FEAR of being shamed....Enough said.

"In other words...all you other people are dishonest and don't truly express your full opinion in order to be nice? THAT, my friend, is stupid. I will never apologize for having the courage to openly express myself."

No. We just don't hold the opinion that this discussion is worth being rude over. Furthermore, even if you truly are so emotionally invested in this discussion as to merit such a lack of respect for the others as has been displayed, there are ways of expressing yourself that don't make you sound immature and unintelligent. You have two responses to that: either you do care about how we view your opinion, in which case you'll take the last statement to heart, or you don't, in which case you are truly wasting your time by getting so emotionally invested in something about which you don't care.

Eden - bottom line is you are one of those axholes that, over time, will always post against me, even if I said the Sun was hot, and absolute zero was cold. So just fck off and find another argument. If you are not FOR or AGAINST the proposal, then why the fuck argue against me personally, instead of specifically addressing my points...which you fail to do. Your only purpose in posting replies to me is to post against me...as you always do, because you apparently have a hard on for me and I won't give in to your advances. Sorry..not gonna happen. Move on, Chump.

Epic fail on your logic. Stupid ideas are implemented all over the world everyday and brilliant ones ignored because they were too much trouble to implement or not a high enough priority at that moment in time. Go ahead shoot your mouth off again and prove your fucking childish ignorance and naivette.

And as far as expressing an opinion... Try your technique in court and get thrown in jail for contempt, fucktard. It's called tact and using it is how you actually succeed at this game as well as life. But i wouldn't expect a 13 year old used tampon to understand that.

Also....President Eden....grow up and stop pretending to be so offended by someone on the interenet saying something that offends you. For real??!?!??! You are SOOOOO immature and emotional that something said on an internet forum offends you so much that you have to keep bringing it up? Damn, dude....ask Mommy to wipe your nose and move on if you get so emotional.

I'm not emotional over this useless conversation...it is just something to pass a boring night. As for the games...yeah...I admit I get frustrated when assholes like you decide to quit competing and vote for a draw before the game is even started...but I guess if you want to admit you are a non-competitive loser and are overly-emotional to internet chat...then I'll pray for you, my sad little pathetic friend....how sad....

@Draungnar.....Uhhh....yeah...whatever. Let's see...YOU, too, are another that will fight me if I say the suggest water is wet. It is so fucking tiring to deal with you **children** that get so offended if someone doesn't wipe your ass with every argument made in a discussion. If I don't agree with your premise before refuting it, you get offended and say someone if being angry or rude. Grow the fuck up. You are on the internet...it's big time, boys....people from EVERYWHERE get to see what you say...and respond, which means some people might be "rude" to you.

Grow up.

You know...if you were ALWAYS right in all your thoughts...I doubt you would be trolling WebDip forums....

Anyway, Draug...fuck off with your buddy there. If I insult you by saying that...to damned bad. You ONLY entered this conversation to insult me...so If *I* insult you in return....GOOD FOR YOU. Grow up, punk.

Jesus Christ you're fucking dense. I agreed with your fucking opinion regarding draws over all. I pointed out the flaws of your logic and your fallacies in regards to the goals of the game. And I'm trying to show you how your speech is *not* influencing people to your view but, in fact, driving them away. You really are a stupid fuck!

"bottom line is you are one of those axholes that, over time, will always post against me, even if I said the Sun was hot, and absolute zero was cold. So just fck off and find another argument. If you are not FOR or AGAINST the proposal, then why the fuck argue against me personally, instead of specifically addressing my points...which you fail to do. Your only purpose in posting replies to me is to post against me...as you always do, because you apparently have a hard on for me and I won't give in to your advances. Sorry..not gonna happen. Move on, Chump."

What are you even talking about? I saw you say you'd rather lose than draw, and figured you meant something different, and asked about it. You then started attacking me when I called you on a pretty obvious logic fault. And I'M the one obsessed with the person, not the argument? And for that matter... two arguments in the >1000 posts I've had on this forum are arguments with you, so I'm obsessed with you? Get some perspective, man, I know it would be a nice ego boost to think I have no greater purpose my life than argue with you but it's just not the case.

"Also....President Eden....grow up and stop pretending to be so offended by someone on the interenet saying something that offends you. For real??!?!??! You are SOOOOO immature and emotional that something said on an internet forum offends you so much that you have to keep bringing it up? Damn, dude....ask Mommy to wipe your nose and move on if you get so emotional."

Wait, let me map this out. People AGREE with you, or at least don't disagree, and point out that YOUR swearing and overly-emotional rhetoric is hurting your cause. You then insinuate that we're being dishonest for not being emotional. I say we're honestly not emotional, and you somehow twist that to mean I'm emotional. How does any of that logically follow in your mind?

"I'm not emotional over this useless conversation...it is just something to pass a boring night."

Then why the incessant swearing and insults? It's clearly not for persuasion, and you say it's not you being emotional. So is it just to egg people on? Must be a boring night indeed -- and quite the immature mind -- if THAT is your entertainment.

"As for the games...yeah...I admit I get frustrated when assholes like you decide to quit competing and vote for a draw before the game is even started."

Chile, please, my win % is twice yours, don't tell me I draw too much.

"but I guess if you want to admit you are a non-competitive loser and are overly-emotional to internet chat...then I'll pray for you, my sad little pathetic friend....how sad...."

Source...?

After re-reading, I need to address these further because they're just THAT inane:

"If you are not FOR or AGAINST the proposal, then why the fuck argue against me personally, instead of specifically addressing my points...which you fail to do."

What points? I asked for them. You didn't provide.

"I'm not emotional over this useless conversation."

"I am not immune to human emotion. Nor am I going to dumb down my opinion so as to not offend the weak of heart."

Translated: I am showing emotion, and I'm damn proud of it too!

Then you say you're not emotional. If you have to contradict yourself and look mortally incompetent at expressing yourself logically and consistently, can you at least make it less laughably easy to find the holes?

Ivo: I didn't mean to imply the distance between each option is the uniform. I just wanted to point out that the ones higher up are ALWAYS preferable to those below.

Thucy, straight questions. Have you had games where you would have used such an option. Is this that bad.

The current system is designed in a way to promote playing for 3-way draws, this is a trend that will increase with time. You get killed off a couple of times and you start doing it yourself.

The reason is that draws have no flexibility and optimizing them becomes a priority at a very early stage of the game. This leads to people starting to discuss stalemate lines as soon as 1902. This does not lead to play in the 'spirit of the game', the way I see it at least. This leads to play in the 'spirit of points and GR'. Which is different.

People will always look up for rankings, so we need to have a system that actually manages the crowd in a way that leads to 'proper play'. Draw by centers will reduce the need to start planning draws too early and killing people for the sake of GR/points will stop.

I do not agree with the statement that a 7-way draw is better than a strong survival. I could get six other people and we can organize to start and instantly draw as many games as we want. 7-way draw is no achievement of any kind. That's not important for the main discussion though, just as a side note.

At first i thought this would be a good idea after thinking it over I would have to say no.A draw and the pot should be split equal amongest thoose involved.
Let's just use an example that i thought of quickly.
1 SC Germany with the unit in Munich being supported by France and England on one side against 17 SC Turkey on the other side.The board is stalemated everywhere else in the north and Med region.Neither side can break in or out.
No matter how poorly Germany has played he is still in possesion of the most valuable piece of real esate on the board and just has to sit there and not move and recieve support from France and England and the game is draw. I feel that despite his bad play he still has set himself up in most valuable place to be and should be part of the draw.

Indeed.

Or, he's played really, really well. Sometimes you can't help it if EF come barreling at you. But, if he was able to stay alive *and* become the holder of the stalemate line, he should get full credit for the draw.

I'm with Ivo on the 7-way draw. You'd have to seriously be playing wrong to end up with 7 people on the board.

I would say he'd probally played well since in my example Turkey is at 17 which would take some time and considering he was up against England/France to still be around when it came crunch time would be good play in my book.
As for the seven way draw what sort of game would,should,could end that way the game begins in a draw for all intents and purposes.If you wanted it end in seven way then just stay home because playing diplomacy is not your forte then.Maybe hungry hungry hippos is what you should be playing.

Actually, I have played a legitimate 7-way draw game before. I (as England) started a WT with ava (France) and... TheGhostmaker, I think, as Germany. Draugnar was Austria and rigged up a Mediterranean Triple to counter us, and eventually Russia was welcomed into the Eastern Bloc because they couldn't afford to kill him off and give us positioning on them.

Wasn't that Rage as Therapy II, Eden?

Correct.