ah... but the Catholic Church is not a rich man... or a man at all. Organizations don't go to heaven or hell. I imagine the evangelists use a similar loophole.

Thank you shafto finally. The bible says hypocrites burn in hell. Im catholic and i still think the pope should give all that damned gold to the poor in africa to create orginizations. if i was pope id deface the vatican to do it lol. sell all the marble and precious stone

Ooops, replied to this in the wrong thread.
People overestimate the flexibility of camel

Maybe they're thinking camel cigarettes?

It all depends on the use of the money. If you're just amassing wealth then yeah that's not a good thing. On the other hand I also served on a local church board that barely kept its doors open, but still never turned anyone away if they came in and needed help with expenses pretty much no questions asked.

I can't speak with any authority as to the spending habits of the Roman Catholic Church (or Anglican church for that matter), but both organizations seem to fund lots of programs hospitals, colleges, orphanages, etc. throughout the world. Again on a national level, I'd doubt that any of us has the true number. As for televangelists, I don't really think that you're looking at the pick of hte litter there, but that's just my personal gripe.

I would think it has more to do with the temptations of what you can do with a lot of money, rather than money inherently sending you to hell. It's hard for a rich man to go to heaven because he is easily tempted to buy anything he wants and live a hedonistic life, not because God's waving the red flag.

BUT through Jesus Christ, all things are possible. You need to look at all the verses surrounding it. ;)

Thanks guys. My point in putting this up was that to me it's quite simple and direct; rich people go to hell-it's plain and simple. The second point I was wondering was that as there is no word in that sentence that can has a disputed meaning (as Camel cigarettes weren't around, but I did find that funny) how can people find any different meaning. I do agree what was posted about the Church and organisations not being people and maybe shouldn't have added that. The singer Cliff Richard was asked this question once and said "It's not the money but how you use it." Cliff, of course, is a millionaire but 1. How does he know what Jesus realy meant (He is old, but was he there?) and 2. Is his interpretation biased because of his bank balance?

I agree with Crazy Anglican. The reason that Jesus said that to the young rich man was that he was attached to his things (he loved his wealth). The Bible never says that money is the root of all evil, it says that "the love of money is the root of all evil".

In another parable Jesus tells, a rich man gives money to three servants. One servant invests wisely and increases the wealth 10 fold. The next increases it 5 fold because he invested cautiously. The final servant buries the money. The first two are rewarded for their investments (in accordance to their return), the last is rebuked for being lazy and wasting what was given to him.

There are lots of references I can add to this (if you want just say and I will), but the intent of wealth given to Christians is to invest in the church and their community. God gives to those who give, and the bible says that when you are generous God will bless you. The Bible doesn't condemn (or promote) wealth, it just realizes that the Church needs money to exist, and rich Christians can fill that need with selflessness.

So if money is given to Christians to give to there communities why are there slums in countries such as Brazil, Argentina and the Philippines. Not much getting around

Well people have faults, Christians should give more, and many do. My Church has 600 members and we give more than $2,000,000 to the less fortunate every year. But we really focus on local needs and do what we can without necessarily using money. I agree however that the Church needs to do more to help the poor. None of us are perfect.

Because Christians are fallible and as given to sins like greed as anyone else. There are plenty of monks, nuns, and missionaries trying their best to alleviate the suffering of others in those slums. The existence of poverty is really no indictment of Christianity.

Exactly. There being poverty is no more an indictment of Christianity than there being disease is an indictment of medicine.

nice analogy Invictus

I think that to get to heaven you have to leave all earthly things behind and the more you have the more of a wrench it is to lose them and so it's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than it is for a very rich man (who, presumably, has become and stayed rich through the pursuit of cash over other things) to give it all up and go to heaven.
P.S. Not sure where some of the bible quotes are coming from - can we have them referenced please.
P.P.S. If we don't develop a proper system of referencing we're never going to make it as an internationally recognised theology journal.

@//piped

HAHAH

I would like to propose the following system:


Right now I"m making an outlandish claim (1). Now some other stuff...


(1)www.HeresALink.com

It's simple linguistics. "It's easier" doesn't mean either act is impossible, just very, very difficult. so if you want to take it literally AND out of context, it still does not say a rich man can't go to heaven.

Aren't heaven's gates made of Gold? Seriously, God, why didn't you invest that wealth in Africa instead? You luxurious bastard.

well the churches can't very well make their buildings elaborate and expensive and full of gold if they don't also picture heaven that way, can they. If they pictured Heaven as a hammock on the seashore (which sounds like a great heaven to me) then the church might get some pressure to give up its wealth and live more simply. So grand gold encrusted castles in the sky it is.

The Catholic Church is rich; therefore, Catholics must be rich.

Logic epic, epic fail. Go back to school.

@ Dominic

admittedly flippant response

Actually the gates are supposedly made of pearl, and God gave Africa a bunch of diamonds. It doesn't appear that God is being greedy about that but men certainly are.

The holy city is made out of gold - that's way more gold than a set of gates.

It means that you cannot buy your way into heaven. Only Jesus Christ can get you in. Yes, the Catholic Church and televangelists are rich, but let's not forget how much work they do for the unfortunate.

Televangelist=hypocrite
at least each one I've ever heard of.

The Catholic Church needs a theological overhaul (that's what Luther was trying to do).

The phrase means that if you are attached to anything other than Christ and push comes to shove, keeping the thing will keep you from heaven.
Like Jesus said, you can't serve two masters.

Also, the Bible does not say "Follow God and you get rich." It says that our reward is in heaven. Christians in China follow God, and they still get hunted by the police.
It's the prosperity preachers talking.
Prosperity preacher=televangelist.

"There being poverty is no more an indictment of Christianity than there being disease is an indictment of medicine. "

Oof, that's an interesting comparison. I wasn't aware Christianity represented the cure to poverty.

"God gave Africa a bunch of diamonds."

Let there be ebola!

@ Parallelopiped

Mark 10:26-31 so that we can be legitimate :-)

@ baumhaeuer

At the time though the Jews widely looked upon rich people as being rewarded by God for their righteousness. The audience at the time, from what I understand, would have seen that as "It's that hard even for the rich people?" not so much "it's bad to be rich". We see that in the disciples' follow up question "Then who can be saved?". That suggestes that they thought the rich would have an easier time than everyone else rather than a harder one. Christ's basically answers them nobody can be saved except through God "With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible". It's basically that God should come first. Christ goes on to turn things upside down for them "The first among you will be last and the last among you will be first". To our ears that not that shocking, but they thought the rich were especially favored by God. Now they find out that salvation is available to everybody without regard to status. No theologian here, but that's my best stab at it.

@ dexter

If my government wants to build an office building (battleship, bomber, etc.) the project can easily go into the millions or billions. The difference is that the government will throw me in jail if I don't pay my taxes, which can be up to 55% (Fed, State, and Municipal) of your income before you ever see it.

My church on the other hand has a completely voluntary system of offerings. No, I've never been threatened with hell if I don't give 10%. Truth be told, I seldom do; but I'm working on it. There really is no Scriptural reference to back up that threat even if it did happen (and yes, I've checked).

Also, when a church is built it's a voluntary project funded for the most part by the congregation. In most cases they take out a loan and repay it themselves. In at least one case, that I know of, one individual came forward and funded the entire building himself. So really, no matter how big and expensive a church is it's usually voluntarily funded by people who worship there. Something the government never attempts (and indeed couldn't do).

Certainly there is little reason to point at "elaborate and expensive churches" that for the most part were the product of hard work and savings of local congregations, as evidence of greed on the part of the international institutions themselves.

The Church is an international Institution

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved? Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

As I aforementionally said, but in not so many words. God can do anything--even fit camels through the eyes of needles. Although, that's much nonsensical, he does let rich people into heaven through the price Jesus Christ, his son, paid.

Thanks for your interpretation Shafto, but this facetiousness must end here. I've correctly interpreted the verses as a Christian would, and as was intended to be interpreted as.

This is an overly cyclical conversation.

@ baum

You're basically right. I pretty much agree with you. Most televangelists need to shut up, for the good of the Church. Catholicism needs an overhaul, and Protestants need to make sure they aren't drifting away from the Bible (with recent liberal decisions)