(I'm surprised I have to spell this out to you, to be honest. Didn't you realise I was a communist?)

Fucking commies. Better dead than red! ;-)

Just kidding, Jamie. Just having some fun with America's past and McCarthyism.

Jamiet, you're avoiding the question. Why, morally should the state be involved in everything. What principle that is provably true do you invoke to justify that position?

@ Ghostmaker: Because only the state has the potential power to re-shape the economy so that it serves the needs of all of society, instead of being driven by the greed of the wealthy.

@ Draugnar: "Just kidding, Jamie."

Yeah, no worries mate, you're ok. Our opinions on such things may differ, but I wouldn't mind sharing a beer with you sometime.

Oh, and... @Ghostmaker:

"Why, morally should the state be involved in everything. What principle that is provably true do you invoke to justify that position?"

This is an invalid question. It is not always possible for something to be provably "morally true" in all cases. Morality is subjective.

@Jamie
This might surprise you but in principle I like the objective of communism. My problem is that I have never seen it work in practice on any scale. I have been to a fair few communist and ex-communist countries and they are all shitholes. I accept that they were not "real" communist states, because the leaders were usually looking after themselves. So, my question to you is: how do you stop that happening?

@ diplomat:

"This might surprise you but in principle I like the objective of communism. My problem is that I have never seen it work in practice on any scale. I have been to a fair few communist and ex-communist countries and they are all shitholes. I accept that they were not "real" communist states, because the leaders were usually looking after themselves. So, my question to you is: how do you stop that happening?"

That's a fair question. Generally I think there are two problems: Firstly, most communist revolutions happened in countries which were not highly industrialised at the time of revolution. Communism requires an industrialised economy, so those countries were starting from a poor starting point. Secondly, you need to ensure that there remains a representative structure, founded on community and workplace committees (the 'Soviets' in the soviet system), and that the system does not operate as a de-facto dictatorship.

Out of interest, which countries have you visited?

"This is an invalid question. It is not always possible for something to be provably "morally true" in all cases. Morality is subjective."

That implies that there is no such thing as right and wrong in politics, only different opinions. Do you accept that statement?

Or at least that there are alternative positions that are no less valid than yours

@Jamie
It's quite a list but the most relevant ones are: China (where I worked for a couple of years in early 90's) plus various visits to Mozambique (1975, so just after independence which means the Portuguese get most of the blame for that), Egypt & Syria (late 80's/early 90's), Vietnam (late 90's), Poland, Czech Rep, Romania, Hungary (all in last 10 years).

The last group particularly are definitely in a post-communist phase and the facililties and infrastructure much improved. Most the people that I have talked to from these countries are very happy to be rid of communism; an old taxi driver in Krakow was the main exception. However, I mostly come into contact with educated English speakers which is not a very representative sample.

Egypt & Syria both retained mixed economies so were not quite so bad. Of course, both have leaderships that are well entrenched with sons taking over from their fathers (at least that is what is likely to happen in Egypt).

China is the most communist place that I have been too. There also the general feeling is that life after Deng's reforms was much better than before, certainly that is my impression. Now I was working in Guangzhou, the centre of the reforms and thus the biggest beneficiary, so again not representative. However, the issue in the rest of the country seems to be that they want what the coastal provinces have, not to turn back the clock.

@ Ghostmaker:

ME: "This is an invalid question. It is not always possible for something to be provably "morally true" in all cases. Morality is subjective."

YOU: "That implies that there is no such thing as right and wrong in politics, only different opinions. Do you accept that statement? Or at least that there are alternative positions that are no less valid than yours?"

I accept that it is possible that my position is not the only valid one, yes.

It is possible to support communism without believing that those who do not support communism are insane. I propose an economic programme which in my view would bring huge benefits to society. That's all.

@ diplomat: Wow, you seem to be pretty well-travelled. That might be something I have to pick up with you in the future.

My direct experience of communist or former communist countries is limited to Cuba and Serbia. Most people in Serbia I spoke to thought that things were either better under communism, or hadn't got any better since. Of course, the conflicts of the 1990's didn't exactly improve their view of the post-communist era. But then it was under communism that Yugoslavia/Former Yugoslavia enjoyed the most peaceful and prosperous era in its modern history.

I know two people at work from former eastern bloc countries, one from Hungary and one from Bulgaria, both say things are better know. The Bulgarian is particularly scathing of the communists. He claims that after WW2 people who had been criminals (organized crime types) made up claimed high posts in the government.

@Jamie
Yup, I have been around: lived & worked in 5 countries and visited 40+ others. PM me if you want to know more.

I think you are right about Serbia. My impression of Yugoslavia is that it was one of the better examples of communist countries although I am suspicious of any state which has the same leader for more than 10 years.

My overall view is that without some sort of incentive (higher wages, bonus, profit, a bigger apartment, whatever) most people do the minimum possible and the result is stagnation of them and thus the economy. You should see the creativity and enthusiasm that has been unleashed in China, it is absolutely stunning.