But seriously, anyone who gets really abusive would get really abusive regardless of whether they signed up for a 'polite' game.

Here, here, Players should, for their own sake make sure they don't make grammatical or spelling mistakes in the language they speak, (hence forth refered to as 'bad' language) it can only lead to misunderstandings between the players and accidental attacks or 'stabs'

This sort of thing should be dissallowed by the mods and we can have some polite, 'fair' 7 way draws.

But if there were a polite option, there would have to be some sort of penalty for breaking the rule.

maybe i mis-interpreted the opening post...

Orathaic, I'd like to point out that you had miscapitalizations, a run on sentence and lacked a period in your opening paragraph. Shithead.

Jimgov, but who decides what language is 'bad'. There's a vast chasm between Jerk and Asshole. Unless we go by the George Carlin rules.

its an issue of freespeech (haha- its really not, i just felt like being a tool)

Hey, I didn't ask for the option. I'm just throwing out a possible way to enforce it. Just calling the game polite will not work.

Well Doof, that has been one of the reasons we've never intervened.
To clarify my question (which I'm far from sure about myself): Do you think people should be allowed to mark a game as polite, in which case abusive language would lead to players being kicked. Clearly the default should stay as it is, I'm just hypothesising.
I must say that some of the examples we get through are really quite horrible.

is the fact that a lot of players on this site seem to be under 18 (which where I am from (OZ) is generally the age of consent) another factor to consider here or is age irrelevant?

Irrelevent but interesting. Whilst you could argue that language should be kept clean for the younger users, but even without this I think there are people who don't want to end up in foul-language games. This is mainly an issue for new[ish] players who don't have the points/reputation to start up private games with just random players from the site.

Oz?

Figles, I ask again. What constitutes 'bad'? Jerk obviously wouldn't get you tossed, asshole presumably would. What about everything in between? You want to be responsible to decide what is 'bad' enough?

No I don't. I'm not sure about the idea at all, was merely wondering if it had support.

ps: see pm's DJ

i see your point.. i think to me bad language doesn't matter and i use a lot of it myself probably, but you're right i have seen a lot of horrible things written in games..
i guess the issue for me is if it is affecting a person's ability to play the game properly, as in a real life situation if someone was offended by something someone was saying i would simply tell them to ignore them and forget them, however if your Germany in a game and trying to work with Italy to crush a strong Russia and Italy is using bad language you can't really ignore them because it ruins the game for you.. but then could you argue (as i think Draugnar has in the past) that using bad language is reasonable diplomacy tactic that can be used to throw other players off

I feel that the players should moderate themselves on this issue; it would be much too hard to moderate it, and I feel that swearing can be a legit part of diplomacy.

FUCK YEAH I LOVE GEORGE CARLIN!!!!

Might I suggest rather than making a 'polite' game, why not go the other route and offer a 'Foulmouth' game. People who feel the need to curse would love it.

I agree with Le Roi entirely.

i think jerkface by his very existance makes that word more acceptable. (http://webdiplomacy.net/profile.php?userID=4699)

i'd like to point out that calling me a 'Shithead' could make me less likely to agree with you, or in-game more likely to attack you - and this is a valid use of in-game chat - there have even been articles about tricking people into defending against your suicide offensive - (see: http://www.diplom.org/Zine/W1998A/Windsor/Chainsaw.html ) - when in fact you are doing something far cleverer...

'Bad' language does tend to have a negative effect on one's results, I know this from experience :), so I think this is the best 'natural' regulator you can get.

At the same time, while one has to adhere to some etiquette and social norms in RL, including political correctness, being nice to crazy people, innocent-till proven guilty, etc. - because it's real life and mistakes can be costly.

However, does a game, on the Internet, require that we drop common sense and act based on evidence that can hold in the Supreme Court?... Not for me.

If you're being and asshole and are ruining the game for others by acting like a moron I'm not going to send you flowers :)

It seems like what you are trying to get at is some system to match up like minded players to have a more enjoyable game with uncouth language being one large factor.

We could go old school D&D and have everyone assign themselves an alignment (default to neutral/neutral) and only allow you to join games where the other people are within two degrees of your alignment. For example, someone that is Chaotic Evil couldn't play in a game with anyone that is Neutral Good, Lawful Good, or Lawful Neutral. But then of course you'd have to define those alignments with respect to playing Diplomacy.

And then of course to limit you to changing your alignment by one degree per month (Lawful Good to Neutral Good for example). And if you don't care what types of people you play with then just leave yourself set to Neutral.

This started out just being silly, but who knows, maybe it isn't so bad of an idea. But just have a "anything goes" to "polite" scale. Goody two shoes that don't want to hear a bad word can put themselves fully polite while people who hate goody two shoes can put themselves at anything goes.

There was recently one game, anonymous and public press, when everything was allowed, actually insults were tolerated. Was great fun :)

I like the idea, not sure how it will work exactly though. I remember I never liked the lack of a Chaotic Good, or Lawfully Evil alignments...

shit piss cunt fuck cocksucker motherfucker tits!!!!!

I'm not sure if the idea is workable to tell the truth. Who would be the judge?

Personally, in real life I swear a lot, but on here I tend to keep it nice as I'm never quite sure most of the time who the person is I may be talking to. I'd hate to be swearing my head of to some 12 year old boy! Then again, if a player swears in a message to me, I feel I can let my hair down a bit...

If you feel the need to abuse me in game, go for it! I can take it! Give me your worst! :)

What if you have tourettes syndrome and dictate your press?

As far as I can tell, if you can rile someone up by using abusive language, that is fair game. It is, in some sense, a negotiating tactic isn't it?

When we look at the real world, diplomats or even heads of state will sometimes swear at each other...some recent examples are Hugo Chavez telling Álvaro Uribe to go to hell in the recent Latin America and Carribean heads of state meeting in Mexico, or that UK Independent MEP launching a public tirade against Herman Van Rompuy. Iran and North Korea make sometimes vulgar comments about the US, and back in the day, Canadian and US leaders have also publically called each other sons of bitches before. Even if there are norms out there which stipulate swearing is not something you do in the diplomatic sphere, it happens.

As orathaic pointed out, or at least alluded too, swearing could be a game changer for some people in some instances. If I swear, even at no one in particular, you could be offended and attack me. As doofman has also pointed out, swearing could be used as a tactic to rile someone up, particularly if they don't like it. Diplomacy is a game about personalities; swearing is or isn't part of someone's personality, and thus it effects the game accordingly depending on the other personalities playing.

As there is nothing about swearing in the rules, you could create a variant where there is no swearing allowed, so I disagree with the option of a foulmouth game because it isn't really a variant at all (although one could advertise it in the title of the game). However, judging by the maturity level of some of the players on this site, I can see some people abusing a 'clean talk' game, giving the moderators another layer of problems to deal with. And as some other members have mentioned, there is a rather subjective level of what constitutes swearing or dirty language.

So, in short, swearing to me is part of the game, but by all means, go ahead and make a variant if you want, but proceed at your own risk.

@Alderian: Would it be acceptable to bullshit your alignment re: your playing style in order to take advantage of other players?

I don't know. I'm just making shit up as I go along. Standard operating procedure. Truthfully I don't think any such system would really work. If you want to play with like minded people, you've got to find them and this is a great place for that.

i think people would grief "polite" games lol, basically going in and being like

FUCK YOU SHITFACE!!

I mean... they would get banned I guess but, they could just come back lol. It's just one more way to grief.

I feel like if they care that much then they shouldn't be on the internet?? that's just me though... honestly most people on the internet throw around "obscenities" so much that i dont exactly think they count as that anymore.

I think when you join a game, simply state in global that you prefer to avoid obscenities, and that to try t enforce it you won't support or ally with any player that uses offensive language. Then you have stated your preferences, and the consequence for ignoring that preference.

Of course, you've just crippled yourself diplomatically. But that's fine with me - it give me an edge if there's someone in the game with a foul mouth, I never have to worry about an alliance between those two people!.

ANd by the way, U.S. officials have done much more than call each other sons of bitches. Dick Cheney famously told a Senator to "Shut the Fuck Up" on the floor of the Senate - a SERIOUS breach of protocol. But he is the prince of Evil, after all.

Oh come on... Tel the fucking whiners to get their fucking heads out of their fucking asses. this is the 21st century. I could go on TV in America (the most repressed nation in the whole fucking free world) after 10 o'clock at night and say "Fuck". Hell, WTF and OMG are part of the teen vocabulary and, despite some claims to the contrary, OMG is not Oh My Gosh, but Oh My God. ROTFLMAO is Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off for fuck's sake.

P.S. The above excessive use of fuck was for demonstrative and ironic purposes only. Anyone offended by it should *get a fucking life*.

Actually, I love a little foul mouth feedback. It tells me that whatever I did to them was truely resented, which makes for great fun. If they are really pissed and go on and on, then I look for a way to drive the knife in a little deeper and twist it a little harder. Oh yeah, nothing like a little feedback....................

back on topic, maybe you should just cut racial slurs and the very harshest sexual terms/words/expressions. You'd leave most stuff like asshole or whatever in there, but you'd cut stuff like "I am going to fucking kill you and stick dynamite up your vagina". Y'know?

Thucydides said "I feel like if they care that much then they shouldn't be on the internet?"

Are you serious? Why can't people who simply want to play a polite game have the opportunity to play with like minded individuals? Also, just because they would like a polite game doesn't mean they can't handle someone cursing at them.

Sheesh. It is getting to the point where people think they should be able to post pictures of them fucking your momma on your computer screen and if you can't handle it then stay off the internet.

"I feel like if they care that much then they shouldn't be on the internet"

I'm sure this is a named rhetorical fallacy; can't be arsed to look it up, however.

As I suggested earlier, every example that has been forwarded to us has been language I would not want to encounter in my own games, and would be enough to ensure I avoided that player if at all possible.

I see nothing wrong with an occasional out burst. But I can understand when it is constant or personaly directed at one person or group why there would be a objection. Perhaps if individuals collect a history of complaints the Mods can take some action.

Well we can't do that without a rule, be it implied or documented, and certainly after saying that it's up to the player to decide!

Just a thought,
If a player is using gratuitous foul language, would it be possible to disable that person's chat?, with the consent of all other players? If the obscenities are directed at one player, then a mod could disable that single line of communication.
Because it would be quite a process to achieve this, I believe it would be effective against the worse cases of language-abusers.

I like COTW's idea tbh.

In a previous game, BESM, one of the top players in webDiplomacy, was crying like a little bitch in my chat and spamming me constantly with abuse and foul language. I agree to a disable function that can reduce assholes like him ruining the game for other players.

P.S Excuse my language ;)

A game started with a "Polite" option could just censor any foul language, ****
I can see a need for a polite option for parents and younger people.
I myself prefer creative insults, at times as they can have more of an impact than commonly used swear words.

Or players could "Vote" for the option of "Polite", and just have censored text for those players. Then everyone writing to them would know they would only view censored text.
**** u germany.

This is a fascinating debate...

I don't use bad language - in real life or online. I've had various obscenities hurled at me in one or two games here but I see that generally as part of the game. If my opponent is that upset with me then I must be doing the right thing ;-)

Surely everyone has to cope with the bad language of others in real life too - you do just tend to ignore it. I have friends in real life who spatter their dialogue with terms that some might find offensive but it is just part of their make-up.

I'm not sure I'd be that interested in a 'Polite' game - I'd hate to think that players were holding back so that I wasn't getting their true reaction to my moves.