I believed in you Space Coyote.

You have removed my silence. But you can't take away...MY...DIG-NI-TY!!!!

www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/us-still-lives-in-the-shadow-of-slavery-the-nation-s-original-sin-1.2258912

Wow, is it accurate to say the US can't have nice things* because it was built in the back of a history and culture of racism? This article claims state-by-state policies from social welfare to gun control coorelate with owning slaves about 150 years ago.

Find me a powerful nation that is relatively unchanged in the last 200 years that isn't built in at least some relatively major way on the backs of an oppressed people and I will tip my cap to you. The US was built and sustained off of incredible racism toward more than just blacks but that isn't terribly unique.

North Korea?

I was thinking Canada, but the moose population has been particularly vocal in recent years, often documenting their ancestors' experiences under an oppressive Canadian regime.

@Bo, it is not the past oppression which is concerning, but the influence that history has on current politics. (At least according to the the article i posted)

@bo_sox

The Aboriginal population has been particularly vocal in Canada in recent years. We've just had a truth and reconciliation committee on residential schools (in order to civilise the savages, the government and the Church removed indigenous children from their homes and forced them into boarding schools where they were subject to sexual and physical abuse and from which many did not return; this program, in place almost since Confederation was ended only in 1996). There is also the near-Third World living conditions on a number of reserves (Attawapiskat, for instance) and a fairly high number of missing and murdered Aboriginal women.

There is also the small matter of the Canadian Pacific Railway, whose construction saw the sustained exploitation of Chinese labourers.

I suppose it's all moot point because Canada is not really a powerful nation.

Really though, most countries are built upon the exploitation of some group or other. You'd be hard-pressed to find countries with egalitarian beginnings. It stands to reason that people in power would in some way or other abuse it.

Veering back on topic, I have found Ta-Nehisi Coates' piece "The Case for Reparations" particularly enlightening and interesting.

I know the aboriginals are coming forward, but I wouldn't argue that Canada was built by oppressing them.

"The Case for Reparations" is a fabulous article. It changed my mind - really, made it a complete 180 - on that issue.

Ora, you specifically referred to the past there. I dodn't read the article because copy and paste on my phone is a bitch and I don't have my computer, so I apologize, but still, I wouldn't even say that slave ownership (and other ridiculously insensitive policies of the past) directly influence everyday politics in the USA. When they do, I find it to be largely among relatively minor social issues in the grander scheme.

It is an excellent piece. However it's sort of insane that people have to be convinced its the right thing to do. Just as its sort of insane you have to convince people that Europe and America are rich because of imperial exploitation. It's sort of a historical no-brainer, but obviously peopled with a vested interest in it have a violent reaction to the plain truth.

@Bo, you are completely missing the point. Which isn' surprising given you didn't rwad the article.

It points to a corellation not causation. And it is this historic momentum which is important, not the specifics or who did what 100 years ago, but the general feeling of identity which we now have based on the stories of who did what 100 years ago.

"Really though, most countries are built upon the exploitation of some group or other. You'd be hard-pressed to find countries with egalitarian beginnings."

*cough* Ireland *cough* But seriously, you'd be hard pressed because you're thinking of western countries which took part in a largely european imperialist conquest.

All of South America? Divided between Spain and Portugal, North America? Between France and Britian. All of North Asia? Is currently called Russia. Australia, New Zealand?

There are the odd exceptions, China has it's own imperialist past.

That said, when the colonisers left Africa (and a power vaccumn in place) most black rulers who took over filled the same roles which the europeans had abandoned. Historical momentum here. Institutions which were vital to keeping power and running people's lives, continued with differet names. The same basic structure kept in place. (You could say the same about Russia, same authoritarian power structure going from Tzarist Empire, to Communist Dictator, to Putin's 'Democracy' - historical momentum keeping everythig going)

So a lot of African countries still suffer from corruption and oppression, left behind by colonialism. But Asia is not the same. India held onto a lot of it's own identity and culture.

Also, 'everyone else did it' is not a good arguement for anything, EVER.

Also, this fantastic comment from and Irish rap group (the rubber bandits): "If confederate flags are being removed because its a symbol of black oppression.Will they do the same with the US flag for native Americans?" - seems appropriate, given the thread.

That's a well made point, but there is a difference, which is that the Confederacy was specifically founded to perpetuate African slavery, whereas the displacement and massacre of the Indians by the American government was not a constitutional or founding principle, merely longstanding government policy. The US flag, therefore, could be rehabilitated, since it is the flag of a modern nation that can ostensibly do right by its people (though it seems doubtful the U.S. will do right by the indians soon). The CSA flag meanwhile is literally a symbol of white supremacy.

The same goes for the Texas flag

Same goes for the Texas flag? Nah.

Texas was an independent republic for a time and that was their flag. It pre-dates secession. It is one of the better flags IMO and befits their motto as well.

Same idea goes for California, also once an independent republic, and its flag.

California was an independent republic? When??

[researching...] "The California Republic was a short-lived, unrecognized state that, for a few weeks in 1846"

Em, no. Or i can claim that webDiplomacy is an unrecognized state aswell, with a population of webDippers and variable territory around their bodies...

CSA Flag is a symbol of white supremacy, but it was CREATED as the battle flag for armed insurrectionists. In no other country are people allowed to fly the flag of a failed insurrection.

And that's why America is different. It's OK for people to fly the battle flag, that's free speech. And it lets me know who's a racist, just as hearing a bunch of white men talking about 'niggers' lets me know that they are racist.

But it's inappropriate for our government institutions to fly the flag of armed insurrection against the federal government.

Em, actually, i'm pretty sure i could fly lots of flags of failed insurrection in Ireland... though i guess most of the armed insurrections have been against british rule... Maybe a modern IRA flag... but then people would know i'm a nationalist and terrorist (or terrorist supporter)

Dude, I'm from Texas, I know. When I said "same goes" I meant tbe same logic I used for the american flag can be used for the texas flag despite the fact that the Texas revolution was in part motivated by slavery

Ok. If your main objection to using the flag of Texas is that it was in part motivated by slavery, then that's your opinion. Fair enough.

Odious as slavery was, I don't think that the flag of Texas really represents slavery in the way the Confederate battle flag does.

More importantly, the CBF is a symbol of treason. IMO that's the main reason it shouldn't be flying at any government buildings anywhere in the country. And that's also why I don't mind the Texas flag as is, because that is the flag Texas joined the United States under.

When Texas seceded, they adopted a different flag and then came back to the United States under the Lone Star flag. There's no dishonor in that.

You're misunderstading - that's the opposite of my point. I was making a discfimin between the flags of US/Texas and the CSA flag

Gotcha Thucy. The flag of Texas could be rehabilitated. Wasn't sure which flag you were equating Texas to.