@Kangaroo Kid, how can you possibly celebrate the 'freedom' when Canada is such a nice place, with such a nice health care system, and which had no major spilling of blood to realise it's independent government?

How can you celebrate the slave-owning leaders who could afford to finance a revolution?

Nothing is so great as a creation myth, i guess the American one is pretty good by itself...

and Tolstoy, i suggest you go and watch V for Vendetta...

"and Tolstoy, i suggest you go and watch V for Vendetta..."

Seen it, wasn't overly impressed. I might go and watch Braveheart or Spartacus, though.

Happy Ungrateful Colonies Day, as I (a Brit) often ironically refer to it. One of my friends dubs it 'Good Riddance Day'. ;)

I am very sorry to burst your bubble, but the United States of America celebrates its independence on the wrong day. 4th July 1776 was the day that thirteen British colonies acting in concert simultaneously declared themselves to be independent sovereign states. On 1st March 1781, they entered into a union somewhat akin to the current European Union, but were still legally separate sovereign states. They were recognized internationally as separate sovereign states by the Treaty of Paris on 12th May 1784. It wasn't until 4th March 1789 that the ‘Constitution of the United States’ comes into effect, establishing the United States of America as a federal sovereign state. That is your true independence day.

wtf you talking about nudge

"4th July 1776 was the day that thirteen British colonies acting in concert simultaneously declared themselves to be independent sovereign states"

"declared themselves to be independent"

Hence independance day

Don't talk nonsense, it was when the President went up in the fighter jet and with the help of a fresh black guy and an alcoholic defeated the alien invasion, I think that was independence day, or was that Men in Black II?

No no no, it was when Patrick Swayze defeated the Soviet occupiers. Wolverines!

@Synapse, so if they were independent states at that point, and on the 4th of March 1789 they stopped being independent... doesn't that make this celebration rather, um, pointless?

"In the greatest of ironies, fireworks (even sparklers) are illegal in my city (and many surrounding cities) and getting caught with them means a $1000 fine."

To be fair, Tolstoy, they're strictly regulated/somewhat banned in my neck of the woods too...

But it's very, VERY dry here and easy to start a big fire, so I think that's fair cause...after all, there are public firework shows, and there's less risk of starting a fire with trained professionals who know what they're doing vs. any old guy setting them off near dry brush-laden hills.

Americans need to also remember that with true "independence" comes the realization that unlimited independence or freedom is the exact opposite of what a state allows--

Rules have to be in place for an America to exist and have a "birthday" at all; it's an increasingly-unpopular position to recognize the need for laws in this country...

That doesn't justofy the NASA

Damn, didn't expect this much hate just for a "Happy Holiday" thread.

Have a free fucking Independence Day. God Bless the USA!

@nudge: this is too formalistic. In the early 1780s there was a push to get formal recognition of other countries for the USA, and their first success was with the Dutch Republic that recognized an independent US in 1782, with John Adams as the first US Ambassador ever.

Orathaic is absolutely correct. July 4th as Independence Day is an anachronism relevant only to the eastern seaboard states. How can you celebrate the independence of a state that did not yet exist?

@obiwanobiwan "That doesn't justofy (sic) the NASA"

Aw, I like the space guys.

Actually, John Adams was not an ambassador, but merely a Minister Plenipotentiary, a lesser rank used diplomats from states that were yet to achieve full sovereign recognition. Ambassadors represent Heads of State. Prior to the Congress of Vienna in 1815, lesser entities were represented by Ministers Plenipotentiary.

LOL TOgilvie! xD

Ah, the fun of sloppy typing on a keyboard in the dark... :p

NASA doesn't need justification--I mean, they're NASA, they're of course too awesome to need justification...the NSA, on the other hand...yeah--justification needed, and not currently there for, like, this current fiasco.

Have a good party USA!

I guess im just going to drink. All u damn stick in the mud folks trying to bring me down

@nudge: good point from an overly formalistic perspective ;-)

Besides, it goes to show that a 'lesser entity' already existed.

By the way, not only the USA but most former colonial countries have their independence day marked by the *declaration*, not the *recognition* of independence. Ask Vietnam. or Indonesia. Or Belgium.

A friend of mine and her family is having their family picnic on the front lawn right now. They tried to go to a city park like they do every year, but they found there was a massive police presence this year. They were searching everyone, and when they found a six-pack of beer in her boyfriend's cooler, *ALL* of their picnic supplies - down to the napkins - were confiscated and sent to police headquarters. They had to drive down to their massive police fortress and beg to get them back. Can someone explain to me what, exactly, we're celebrating? "Freedom from tyranny", or something like that was it?

If the anti-government terrorists who founded this country were alive today, would they be meekly begging the desk sergeant for their napkins and paper plates back, or would they be picking up their "assault weapons" and gunning down every pig they could find?

"Can someone explain to me what, exactly, we're celebrating?"

That a bunch of wealthy white farm owners and business owners who had an absurd amount of time to sit around and read got it into their head that taxes were too high and unfair, that they first wanted at least a seat in Parliament and then just decided they could govern themselves better at home, and broke with the fatherland in order to do so.

...I guess?

For all the rhetoric surrounding the day...it really wasn't about fanciful ideals of (to borrow from that "other" famous 18th century revolution) Liberty, Equality and Fraternity. Not at the start, anyway.

Or even that all men are created equal--not when the people calling the shots are wealthy male land owners and there are slaves being owned. (And besides, Locke had already both written and been a hypocrite on the equality/slavery issue a century before Jefferson.)

I don't know, maybe I'm not "patriotic enough," but I've honestly ceased to care about the 4th of July and a lot of the "ideals this country was founded on," as 1. More often than not those "ideals" weren't really there to begin with (see: equality) and 2. I just don't care that much for nationalism. I view America the same way I view Los Angeles County--

I like to take shots at them, say they suck, groan about them...but they're still where I live and they're still, relatively-speaking, one of the better places on Earth one could live, especially looking at all the problems in Africa, the Middle East, Asia and so on...

I dunno, I'm much more "Go Team English Language!" or "Go Team Western Culture!" than just "Go America!" (unless it's sports...then go Team America, kick ass...and go the UK/Israel if America is defeated.) ;)

For me, America's just one piece--albeit a sizable one--of a larger cultural sphere...and I think that's what matters more in a globalized world, or what's easier to connect to, anyway.

Cultural Spheres are the new Nation States. (Maybe not, but it sounded good and, um, freedom, and 'muricah, and all that.) :p

More 4th of July irony:

Local city ordnances criminalizing private possession and use of fireworks are common in my area, allegedly due to the extreme "fire danger" inherent in waving a sparkler around. Getting caught celebrating the 4th of July in the traditional manner risks a $1000 fine, and the police will seize your fireworks. Last night I found out what the police do with those seized fireworks; a friend of a friend was partying with a bunch of cops into the wee hours of July 5th.... yes, you guessed it - were having fun lighting off all the "illegal" fireworks they had seized during the week. Apparently it's only safe to celebrate Independence Day in Southern California at either a government-run fireworks show OR privately if you're a member of the enforcement caste. No fireworks for the little people!

"after all, there are public firework shows, and there's less risk of starting a fire with trained professionals who know what they're doing vs. any old guy setting them off near dry brush-laden hills."

Was re-reading the thread and had to remark on the irony of this statement, considering the massive explosion at the "professional" fireworks show in Simi Valley that wounded dozens of people.

Well, thank God Ohio is more rational, Tolstoy. We forbid certain airborne fireworks without a professional license, but sparklers and firecrackers and snakes and smoke bombs and stuff are fine. Plus, virtually every community in Greater Cincinnati puts on a show sometime between the 3rd and 5th.

Kentucky does even better... Get the fire marshalls approval and post a small (20k I think) bond in Boone County and you can have a show. Where we used to live, we had the fire marshal as one of our neighbors. Best show around!