http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=33110#gamePanel
A classic stalemate, stab, lose stalemate, get build, re-build the stalemate situation, and draw even though you and your ally were completely outnumbered.

I don't understand your point.

It was a very weird game that ended up in a stalemate, so I just thought I would show you a good example of a stalemate

I could show you plenty of games that had failed stalemates that ended up with someone winning because of one bad turn, but I would have to look through too many games.

Well this was the case of someone who could have gotten a draw clearly and deliberately throwing the game to someone for no apparent reason other than personal vengeance.

I misread the thread name, I thought it said end of the game stalemates. Sorry.

I hope you understand, it is late where I am

[Turkey]

first I'll do my EoG - then answer some of England's concerns (accusations?)...

Obviously, I benefited from the Russian and Austrian NMR in spring 1901. but then AH came back in the fall. in the fall of 1901, I chose NOT to go for ser and rum for 3 builds because I felt it would be best to get italy on my side and remove the big target that would be put on me if I had simply taken advantage. i ended up with 4 instead of 6. but I think that was my best decision of the game.

As you will see, I built only armies for several years - which was perfect, Italy saw my friendly builds and did not come after me despite my advantage on Russia. however, I did not really take advantage of russia any more than England did until much later into the game when Germany NMRed then went CD.

the big turning point was deciding to take ser from italy - and that was a simple matter of math. it was my realization that he would move to vie, open up ven for a build and get 3 builds instead of 1 - which would give him a huge advantage... that move and keeping AH in the game allowed me to overpower italy eventually.

I wont go through year by year... but suffice to say, my strategic decision to build my armies first and move them as far forward as possible and deal with the Ionion later absolutely paid off. not only did that keep italy down to 3 fleets, but it also put my armies in position to take the 17th and 18th dots in Germany (nevermind Hol and Par) that I needed for the solo.

two big set backs for me were the german CD in the height of the game which gave France a life line.. and conversly, Frances decision to destroy his advanced fleet in ion which i was counting on to keep italy busy a bit longer...

the biggest positive thing that happend was that England kept building fleets instead of armies... and that he decided to go for the french dots instead of coming to italy's aid to block me in the med. my biggest fear was that E would swing to naf and sup hold tun or wms and sup hold tys... but instead he kept going for por and spa... which was the main reason I solo'd in the end... no one came to help italy in the south.

long story short - I did take advantage of the Russian CD (he did join for a few minutes in one of the turns, but chose not to put in orders). but in a live game like this, you cant avoid that. E and F got a HUGE boost from the German CD and undefended dots... and Italy got a huge advantage from the Austrian CD. so in the end, I feel I simply took better advantage of the CDs in my neighborhood... and instead of going for dots, in some cases I went for position instead which was a huge huge boost to my chances long-term.

to respond to England.... on the issue of not drawing... why? I waited over an hour to get into a live game and knew it would take 2-3 hrs to finish. others who joined should have considered that. I also put in effort and thought into my moves and took advantage of the CDs better than the other players (in my opinion) so I feel I earned the solo pretty fairly overall. one other minor point here: in some cases, i'm the one screwed by a CD in that other players get a big advantage... it shakes out in the end.

on the other question of why did I not finalize? I did as much as I could - often with 2 min left on the clock... but once you get to 10, 12, or 15 units, you really have to think about your moves as well as actually put them in. so yes, I used the retreat and build phases to THINK!!!!!!

smart tactics are not easy to think in a hurry... and 5 short minutes is sometimes not enough to think of all possibilities. as you take a look at the later seasons in the game, you'll see I took some calculated risks and I made some unexpected moves... again, part of the reason I solo'd. however if I may add rumley, you did not think through some of your moves... moving berlin to kiel instead of den to kie or hol to kie. not taking burgundy several seasons before the finish... these were marks of someone who did not think through their moves enough.

in the end - even in a gunboat game, E had a great shot to cause a draw. instead of moving Den to Kie for example in the spring of 1907. he should have convoyed to prussia. but that was just one among about half-a-dozen moves he could have made to prevent my solo...

it is a gunboat game, and his mistrust of France (for good reason) did indeed help me out. so I cant be too harsh on him ;)

I must say however that Italy was a great player that challenged me well and outguessed me on a few occasions. very well played in a tough position without much help from others.

My final thought, if I may pat myself on the back, is that my tactical decisions and most importantly my strategic planning simply put me too far ahead for the rest to catch up.


thanks all for a great live gunboat. my first in a very very long time.

I saw Turkey play a good, smart game, more than I can say for Englands end game tactic of keeping on attacking Italy for no reason, and just having to kill France instead of keeping Turkey from Berlin

Dude you can't fault the guy for capitalizing on CDs. That's just how the game works man.

Let's just say: don't like it, don't CD.

There were four CDs.......

I went CD. It was unavoidable. There was nothing I could do about it. I am sorry. This much I will say.

"the biggest positive thing that happend was that England kept building fleets instead of armies... and that he decided to go for the french dots instead of coming to italy's aid to block me in the med. my biggest fear was that E would swing to naf and sup hold tun or wms and sup hold tys... but instead he kept going for por and spa... which was the main reason I solo'd in the end... no one came to help italy in the south."

I was planning on a two way draw once you hit the stalemate line, which would have been easy for me to set up, except France came back unexpectedly and intentionally threw you the game when he could have been a part of the draw.

" E and F got a HUGE boost from the German CD and undefended dots..."

No... Not at all. I lost my ally against an aggressive French player, and he got almost all of the dots to start with - it was only through superior tactics (getting my fleet into Brest) that let me take him out.

"i'm the one screwed by a CD in that other players get a big advantage... it shakes out in the end."

In my experience, most people draw when there are more than two CD's...

I'll also say in regards to some of the things you said in the other thread that towards the end, I was not trying to stop your solo. It was inevitable, as soon as France came back to throw the game for you. At that point, I was playing to defeat France.

That's why I don't do live games very often. They are filled with NMRs and CDs and I hate the fuckers who do them for that reason alone.

You join a live game, make certain you have three spare hours. Don't CD. Reserve enought ime and you'll ba able to play through. Only assholes join knowing they have other things might get in the way.

I was hoping for a draw, the game was pretty much bullshit. I think I was hurt the most by the CDs, because France's was short-lived, and Germany's gave France enough momentum to make it hard for me to take full advantage of the Austrian CD.

Turkey had it made without any competition for the Balkans, but I think he also played very well.

France mucked everything up. He should have had an easy time at a two-way at least, but he attacked me, over-extended himself, and fell apart even with Germany's free centers.

I don't think Germany's CD was that great for England. It's much easier for France to take advantage of Germany's centers. But combined with France's tactical mistakes, he could have made better use of it. Still, much more than his decision to attack Spain and Portugal, France's ill-conceived early raid on the Mediterranean ended the game for me.

Well played, Turkey. I would have liked to see a draw, but there's no denying that you played your loaded hand well.

Yeah, I never denied at all that Turkey played a superb game. I just thought it was pretty tasteless to go for the solo in a game where he so clearly got it because of the CD's.

hmmm... well I will take all this into advisement. i dont play live games a lot, so I did not know there was a 'norm' to draw or cancel once there were x number of CDs.

also keep in mind that except for Russia, the rest of the CDs came back and played part of the game.

I do agree that I got the better end of the CDs, but in the end, I also think others did not take advantage of their chances sufficiently...

my attitude currentlyh about live games is - i'm in it to play. so I'll stay to the end. period.

One other thing did affect my decision - maybe it shouldnt, but it does. fortunately (or unfortunately) I'm a very high Ghost rated player... which means specially in Live games wehere a higher than usual number of newer and lower ranked players play, I am at a huge disadvantage when there is a 6, 5, or 4 way draw... i end up losing points. I have not calculated ... but I would not be surprised if in our game, I contributed more than HALF the GR points to the pot... (I could be wrong) which means the only way I would not LOSE points was to solo.

I do wish there was a way to play a 'free' or un-ranked game somehow so I could play to my hearts content, and even do some experimentation... but instead, I do have to worry a bit about the fact that a 5way draw would COST me. through no fault of my own.

it is a minor point, but it did enter my calculation to a small degree.

I challenge anyone to find a game worse than the one I've just wasted an evening playing.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=34404&msgCountryID=0&rand=65151

I agree with you entirely about the "free" games. I think that would be a great feature. That's why I asked for a richer pot than 10 each - so that we wouldn't get the people that CD a lot (That worked out well... oh wait.)

But taking rankings seriously (on any game, really) has always confused me. There's no such thing as a game that doesn't involve lots of luck (maybe chess and a few other two person games...).

"I did not know there was a 'norm' to draw or cancel once there were x number of CDs. "

I don't think it's an unwritten rule, but most people will usually vote draw after two people have CDed - let alone four. At least that's been my experience.

And Oct, I only made a cursory glance, but what made that game so bad? It had a few CD's, but it was by no means worse than our game...

A few CD's?!? Germany only moved every other turn because his dad was messing with the internet, Turkey and France both left the game for half an hour to have lunch, England CD'ed as soon as he lost Norway, and Italy (perhaps understandably in the circumstances) completely lost the will to fight. Austria at least made an effort, but was about as poor an Austria as you can get.

There were no redeeming features whatsoever about this game. A complete waste of a couple of hours. I have had defeats that were infinitely more enjoyable than that mess.

I haven't done it, but I bet if you count up the total number of NMR's, it's less than our game. :-)

That's a pretty crap game I must admit, happyface. But why didn't you work with the players who didn't CD to stop Turkey? It was clear within the first couple of years that he was likely to win.

I see it was gunboat. That is a bit more tricky. I played a game recently where Turkey NMR'd on the first move. The remaining players voted to restart. I guess it is bit harder to that in a gunboat because you can't message each other.