Ok… Time to catch up.
@ Obi:
“Further, I don't accept or even quite understand your claim Aristotle's Poetic ideas are no longer valid or useful for evaluating art. Saying that, in descending order, plot, character, direction (that one is admittedly more applicable to plays, but it still works in this age of films and music videos, and so is clearly applicable to Gaga's work here) and spectacle are the pieces that make up art and rank thusly in importance seems pretty useful and still-applicable to me...”
Because there are mediums of art that do not have plot, or, at the very least, can not demonstrate plot to the same degree as a play. To try to force them to is ridiculous. Paintings can have plot, but it’s a lot easier in a play.
“When we say a movie's bad, what's one of the biggest complains, likely the #1?”
When someone says a painting is bad, what’s one of the biggest complaints, likely the #1? It sure as hell isn’t “plot”. You’re being selective in your art forms to prove your point.
There are different styles of songs. One of those styles is to tell a story. (The first example I can think of is Love Story, by Taylor Swift) Are you going to tell me that every song that isn’t a story song is a lesser form of art than Love Story? On this basis, I will make the claim that country music is the most artistic of modern musical styles, because country music is the style that most often tells a story and has plot.
“So- can Gaga match or trump Shakespeare in artistic merit? Bach? Milton? Da Vinci? Puccini? Dante? Ibsen? Tchaikovsky or Pushkin or Dickens or Verdi or...?”
Probably not, no. But this thread didn’t start out as “GaGa isn’t art”. I’m not sure I would disagree with that statement. I think she probably is, but she’s obviously not Tchaikovsky (My personal favorite composer). You’ve shifted, quite seamlessly from “GaGa sucks” to “GaGa isn’t art”. I don’t have nearly as much objection to the second as I do the first. But I do have a little objection.
“(And rlumley, I already dropped the slut-bit and made ammends on that issue and admitted a logical wrong on my part there, will you please just drop it already?)”
That comment (However, I will point out that you still haven't answered my critique of you not being familiar enough with Lady GaGa's work to offer an intelligent opinion.) was not in reference to your slut comments, but rather the fact that I doubted that you had actually listened to a significant portion of her music, and, as such, can not offer an opinion on its quality.
“Now, in terms of song popularity and meaning and overall effect, she still has a way to go”
I’m not sure if you’re saying it or abgemacht said it, but popularity is not at all a valid basis for determining artful status. Shakespeare was not popular for his commentaries on society or his witty puns, he was popular for his crass double entendres.
“So when Gaga writes a song so powerful and moving in not only its content but its applicability”
That’s the entire point! (I’m struggling not to use all caps here.) Her songs aren’t applicable to everyone. Her songs are about oppressed minorities standing up for themselves. They’re definitionally not applicable to everyone, because for everyone who is oppressed, there must be at least one oppressor.
“And Synalon- I did adress your point, I even pointed out how plot and character applies to art as well.
Take "The Last Supper." You may not see a story there, but I do.
"The Scream?" I see a story, in that scream and all around it...”
Again, you’re being selective in your paintings. Go reread everything I said at the beginning of this post. That stuff was money (honey).
“OK, I just now finished watching the artist colliqually known as Gaga.”
Great. Now that you’ve listened to her songs, you’re ready to offer an informed opinion. Coincidentally, you also invalidated everything you said prior to this.
Re: Your analysis of “Bad Romance”, in which you praise her Spectacle, but are nonplussed with everything else: Doesn’t expert status in one of these categories qualify? To illustrate this point, I’ll mention Salvador Dali. He may have each of these characteristics, but where he shines is Spectacle. Isn’t this enough to make him an artist?
“For all of that, though, the theme...seems so flat and just unoriginal it almost”: I challenge you to name a single song that is A. about dysfunctional relationships, and B. as popular. (I throw popularity in not as a measure of art, but rather as a measure of originality.)
“Really, what was so special about the *song?* I mean, the sets and costumes I can understand being lauded, but...why?”
It (and all of her music) is special because it is one of the first songs that don’t objectify women, and is instead about women standing up for themselves and casting off the men who are controlling them.
@ Pete:
“She may be forgotten. I tend to think she will be remembered as one of the defining popular music artists of the early 21st century”
Personally, I find her to be very similar to Michael Jackson. But MJ created a whole new Genre, so I don’t think she’ll be looked on as revolutionary as he was.
Lastly, I think you also must consider that not each song stands on its own, just as every act in a play does not stand on its own. They must be taken as a whole, and indeed she ties them together – quite intentionally – with many phrases that repeat throughout her works.
I’ll try to be short, because I don’t really care to spend that long analyzing her work, even though I could. This is how I see Lady GaGa:
The Fame (her first album) was about being rich and famous. Most of the songs on there didn’t have much artistic merit, if any (Just Dance, Boys Boys Boys, I Like It Rough, Summerboy, Paper Gangsta, LoveGame, etc…). She got on the national stage, and everyone assumed she was just another trashy celebrity.
And then she released The Fame Monster. The Fame Monster was about the darker side of fame – how fame can destroy things. My current favorite GaGa song is Dance in the Dark. I originally liked it for its feministic message, but as I listened to it, I realized how well she had disguised her themes in it. See this thread for more details, because I don’t particularly feel like plagiarizing these people: http://community.livejournal.com/ladygagafans/698145.html
What did you guys want to be when you grew up.
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