Forum
A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
Page 1211 of 1419
FirstPreviousNextLast
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
11 Nov 14 UTC
A "Unified" Palestinian Government? I Think Not...
http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-trying-destroy-palestinian-unity-says-abbas-112457367.html I'd say having to scrap ceremonies for (however one might feel about him) a huge leader in Palestinian history due to concerns one faction might attack the other is a sign you DON'T have a unified government. Much as I dislike Abbas and Fatah, they're the better of the two factions fighting for power there...again--Hamas Hamas HAMAS destroys peace, even for fellow Palestinians.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
11 Nov 14 UTC
And to address it before it comes up--

Claiming Hamas destroys peace AND claiming Israel does so as well are not mutually exclusive...

Even the anti-Israel folks here can surely agree that Hamas, too, by doing this, firing during Abbas-agreed-upon ceasefires during the war, and other actions are really undermining the peace efforts here as well?

Hamas HAS to go in the region.

Israel isn't going anywhere, like it or not, and has the nuclear weapons and massive military to back that fact up.

Get rid of Hamas--it's the Palestinians' best hope for peace through a unified front...because they can't possibly take on Israel (on the battlefield OR the negotiation table) with a divided front like this.

Hamas Hamas Hamas...
DeathLlama8 (514 D)
11 Nov 14 UTC
(+1)
Peaceful two-state solutions be good! Current situation is really the opposite!

/thread
Zmaj (215 D(B))
11 Nov 14 UTC
obiwanobiwan, when I read your post, my first thought was "I bet he's a Jew". And bingo! I wonder how exactly you would describe the peace that Hamas is destroying.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
11 Nov 14 UTC
^...Lol...

I was gonna leave the Israelis out of this and mainly talk about the factions...

But, sure, why not. :p
JamesYanik (548 D)
11 Nov 14 UTC
revolutionary new idea for the world: don't kill, rape or torture people. Other crimes you can be put in jail for but those three: no-no.

no-no


































no-no
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
11 Nov 14 UTC
(+1)
1. Um...you bet I'm a Jew? O.o

2. Zmaj, folks--is he new? I mean...I think I've rather outed myself as a Jew...do I seriously need to be more Jewy? :p

3. "I wonder how exactly you would describe the peace that Hamas is destroying."

The peace between Palestinians--NOT between the Israelis/Palestinians.

That's what I'm saying here...

Israel is at fault in large part in the West Bank. I like Israel, but a LOT of that is the fault of their expansionist right-wing which, as with most right-wing governments, really needs to be reigned in or, better still, ousted in favor of moderates.

But between Palestinians themselves, leaving Israelis out of it for a moment?

Read the article--

"Palestinians are unanimous in their belief that their iconic national leader would not have allowed the quasi civil war between Fatah and Hamas in 2007 which saw the Islamist movement ousting their rivals from Gaza and the establishment of two separate administrations."

^Hamas destroyed THAT peace, the peace of pan-Palestinian unity.

And that might've hurt the peace process overall as well...

One of Israel's biggest concerns in a peace deal has been secure borders.

Whether you agree with that idea or not, it IS easier to secure borders against one, unified faction whom you can agree with than two factions, wherein one might agree to a deal and the other just ignore it and attack, as happened in ceasefires during the 50 Day War.

Hamas destroyed Palestinian unity, and that's hurting the peace process as well.
Zmaj (215 D(B))
11 Nov 14 UTC
obiwanobiwan, that was a rhetorical question. There's no way I could get an objective picture of the Middle East when the explanation is written by a Jew. You're an interested party and you're bound to be biased. Human nature.
Jamiet99uk (865 D)
12 Nov 14 UTC
I say we kill them.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
12 Nov 14 UTC
"There's no way I could get an objective picture of the Middle East when the explanation is written by a Jew. You're an interested party and you're bound to be biased."

1. As long as you extend that same decree to Arab/Non-Zionist members of the site, OK, but

2. Who ISN'T an "interested party" by this part?

The US, Europe, and every Middle Eastern power are interested parties...

So who here can truly be said to be objective, or from a truly-objective nation?
krellin (80 DX)
12 Nov 14 UTC
If Israel would be allowed to succeed in eliminating them down to a single soul, the Palestinian terrorist government would be unified. Until then, chaos, evil and unnecessary bloodshed shall continue.

That is all....
ssorenn (0 DX)
12 Nov 14 UTC
Kremlin has fixed the problem. We can all calm down now, and go back to our regularly scheduled programming. :))
ssorenn (0 DX)
12 Nov 14 UTC
Fudge, Krellin^
krellin (80 DX)
12 Nov 14 UTC
(+1)
pew...pew pew...
TrPrado (461 D)
12 Nov 14 UTC
My first thought: Wow, he's really learned how to specify Hamas from when the Gaza conflict was in the forum a lot.
Second thought: Wait, I wonder if he's specifying Hamas.
Third thought: What's krellin on about?
krellin (80 DX)
12 Nov 14 UTC
On about? Such a strange turn of phrase. I don't like it.

I'm going to go pray upon my Idol of Zultar that you shall be silenced for a month.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
12 Nov 14 UTC
^What happened to the banning of idol worship, krellin?

Did your kids buy you a golden calf for Father's Day? ;)

(And anyway, KESTAS is the one true God here!)
Invictus (240 D)
12 Nov 14 UTC
obiwanobiwan, you're completely right that Hamas is a terrorist group and has no place in the peace process absent radical internal reform.

However, I don't think that it is Hamas alone that is blocking a Palestinian state living in peace side-by-side with Israel. It's certainly a major part. Maybe the main part. But other reasons exist.

For one, the settlements. The settlements (and the access roads connecting them, and the extensive Area C) makes a the West Bank area of a future Palestinian state nearly nonviable. While Israel should not have to go back to the Green Line as a border, it does have to give up a lot of what it now controls if there is to be peace. See the Olmert Plan for more or less what has to happen. It's not unreasonable for Palestinians to be upset that their land is being steadily taken by settlers, even though their violent responses are obviously illegitimate.

Secondly, many Palestinian people turn to Hamas not necessarily because they support terrorism (though many do), but because Fatah and the PA are so hopelessly corrupt and craven to outside control. Abbas is beholden to Gulf and American aid since the Palestinian territories effectively have no economy and he's beholden to the Israeli government because of the nature of the relationship set up in the various peace process agreements. Maybe that's good and maybe that's what we as outsiders want for our own interests, but it's certainly not a ticket to domestic popularity for Fatah. Given limited options, many Palestinians therefore turn to Hamas to express their displeasure with the legitimate Palestinian organization.
krellin (80 DX)
12 Nov 14 UTC
Kestas is not the one true God. He is but a shadow of his former diety.

Long Live Zultar!!!! Huzzah!!! Huzzah!! Huzzah!!!

What banning of idol worship are you talking about Obi?
Invictus (240 D)
12 Nov 14 UTC
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Zultar R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
12 Nov 14 UTC
Kestas IS the one true God!

Zultar is his Messenger on WebDip!

READ YOUR WEBDIP BIBLE, KRELLIN!
TrPrado (461 D)
12 Nov 14 UTC
I can accept WEBDIP because the entire sentence was capitalized, but WebDip cannot stand. It's called webDip, obi.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
12 Nov 14 UTC
@Invictus:

"However, I don't think that it is Hamas alone that is blocking a Palestinian state living in peace side-by-side with Israel. It's certainly a major part. Maybe the main part. But other reasons exist."

Before getting to those other points--again, this post was mainly focused on the Palestinian side of things in and of themselves...why they're NOT a united government/front, vs. why they're not an independent state, if that makes sense. Related but still different topics.

On the settlers:

I agree that, in the West Bank especially, settlements are a problem, and would largely fall on the "Israel" side of the blame here, when this is all said and done and future history classes hundreds of years from now (assuming they're not, you know, still fighting, of course) study this and assign blame to different sides.

I say "largely," since I'd argue it's pretty rare in this conflict for an incident to be purely the fault of one side or the other; rather, there's only who's "more" to blame.

East Jerusalem is another story, but I digress.

One of the biggest problems with this is the simple fact that the two swaths of Palestinian land aren't contiguous, and can never be without Israel giving up what would frankly be an unreasonable tract of land, since that'd basically carve Israel in two...Palestinians don't like that situation now, so it's pretty unreasonable to ask Israelis to willingly cut their country in half, especially to allow for the formation of a state run by an "enemy" of nearly 70 years.

I increasingly think the only way to solve this and make the peace last--I'm not convinced a non-contiguous state can work, not at this point, and definitely not with security a huge concern for Israel--that the Palestinians will have to give up one of the two patches of land they have now in exchange for more land adjacent to the region they would keep, which Israel would then have to cede.

The West Bank would make the most sense, as the larger of the two...but on the other hand, part of the reason it's favored is that it's adjacent to Jerusalem, which the Palestinians want to claim as an at least partial capital (and I think it's safe to say many Palestinians and a majority of the Islamic world would want the the whole city itself returned to Islamic control.)

The latter is what Israel fears, and the latter will NOT happen. Israel would fight a war to keep that city, and they would win. No way even an actually-unified Palestinian front would win that war...given the state of the Middle East right now, with all the other wars and civil wars, good luck getting help if you're on the Palestinian side, but even if you do (and in fairness, if anything could unite some of these nations, it'd be an anti-Israel war for Jerusalem) Israel has won with far larger forces set against them, and with far worse equipment.

I think Netanyahu and his cronies want to annex the whole of the West Bank, and make Gaza + maybe a bit of the surrounding terrain there the Palestinian state.

It'd be tiny, isolated from other Arab states besides possibly Egypt, an Israeli ally, Israel would get more land for more of its people, and there'd be no way the Palestinians could claim Jerusalem, as Gaza's on the other side of the country.

Fair or not, I think that's what their plan is...and I don't know what anyone can do to stop that at this point...the West won't invade Israel, and any other prospective force that would invade can't beat them, so even if Israel became a pariah state, if they feel that's a worthwhile trade in the long-term, getting more land AND giving the Palestinians a state on Israeli terms and away from Jerusalem...

It's hard to argue with that logic, even if you really can condemn any potential inequities there.

On Hamas:

"Secondly, many Palestinian people turn to Hamas not necessarily because they support terrorism (though many do), but because Fatah and the PA are so hopelessly corrupt and craven to outside control."

But Hamas is corrupt too...using money for infrastructure to rearm...

It's just that people are more OK with that form of corruption, since it directs their anger outward at Israel, rather than inward at Hamas, when really, it's better served being directed at both...less to Israel (ONLY to the extent they shouldn't support terrorism, otherwise, they have reasons to be angry, of course) and more to Hamas (who seem quite content to keep the circle of violence and inconsequential wars going so long as it keeps them in power, no matter how destructive it is to Gazans.)

"Given limited options, many Palestinians therefore turn to Hamas to express their displeasure with the legitimate Palestinian organization."

Then as my title would suggest, we need to stop this nonsense about describing a sort of unified "Palestinian Authority," as if these factions are actually unified.

The closest they come to being unified is in violence towards Israel, which isn't productive for anyone, since terrorism is bad in every respect for the Palestinians, hurts innocent Israelis, and any war, as the 50 Day War just showed, will ALWAYS lead to absolute destruction and horrific suffering for the Palestinians, far more so than the Israelis, at least in material terms and, as of right now, body count.

They're not united...so they need to stop being treated as such in coverage.
Invictus (240 D)
12 Nov 14 UTC
Good grief. Will you ever try editing down?

"I say "largely," since I'd argue it's pretty rare in this conflict for an incident to be purely the fault of one side or the other; rather, there's only who's "more" to blame."

How can the existence of illegal settlements be anyone's fault besides the people who built them?


"East Jerusalem is another story, but I digress."

It isn't. East Jerusalem is the West Bank. I think Israel should have unified Jerusalem as its capital, but since territory can only be transferred by treaty the expanded municpal borders of Jerusalem post-1967 are invalid under international law.


"I increasingly think the only way to solve this and make the peace last--I'm not convinced a non-contiguous state can work, not at this point, and definitely not with security a huge concern for Israel--that the Palestinians will have to give up one of the two patches of land they have now in exchange for more land adjacent to the region they would keep, which Israel would then have to cede."

You're a goddamn moron, then. This is too stupid of an idea to even consider talking about.


"But Hamas is corrupt too."

Yeah. So what? All it has to do is *look* less so to some people. Clearly is does.


"Then as my title would suggest, we need to stop this nonsense about describing a sort of unified "Palestinian Authority," as if these factions are actually unified."

Do you even know what the Palestinian Authority is? It exists regardless of whether Fatah and Hamas are cooperating or not.


For someone who spouts off on this issue so often you're wildly uninformed on pretty basic areas.


23 replies
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
11 Nov 14 UTC
LOL
Wait, seriously?
19 replies
Open
metaturbo707 (126 D)
12 Nov 14 UTC
Rosetta ESA Comet Lander Mission
9:30 pm EST next update from ESA on Philae Lander readiness for start of comet landing! Landing expected around Noon EST tomorrow.

Live webcast here for next 24 hrs: http://new.livestream.com/esa/cometlanding
2 replies
Open
JimTheGrey (968 D(S))
24 Oct 14 UTC
TV Rots the Brain
Anyone want to post the tote board for TV's five-game series? Three games are finished, ending in solos by three different players. A fourth should end this weekend. And the fifth saw it's first elimination in 1915. Good stuff.
19 replies
Open
Fluminator (1500 D)
11 Nov 14 UTC
Any Freemasons here?
I just watched an 11 hour documentary about the Illuminati that mentioned Freemasons are Satan-worshippers and I want confirmation.
23 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (865 D)
08 Nov 14 UTC
(+4)
This will cheer you up.
http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/5/3970/3970473_sprite198.swf
16 replies
Open
VirtualBob (209 D)
11 Nov 14 UTC
(+3)
WebDip learns humor from TSA?
Looks like we need a humorectomy to join the mod team.
5 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
09 Nov 14 UTC
High School Drama
Why does this still exist after high school?
31 replies
Open
dreamer0 (115 D)
11 Nov 14 UTC
Game error?
Hi guys,
In the game http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=147999 I am trying to move a fleet from EC to Brest but there is no Brest in the drop down menu for the move. There is every other option but Brest.
Anyone has any idea what that is about?
7 replies
Open
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
11 Nov 14 UTC
(+4)
All Hail Hero Zultar
Here to protect your forums from "pointless" or "confusing" thoughts and discussions. My tiny brain is too confused to make these choices for myself! Oh, where would we be without him to decide for us what is and is not worth talking about?
2 replies
Open
Yellowjacket (835 D(B))
11 Nov 14 UTC
(+2)
Locked threads
On some bullshit.
41 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
11 Nov 14 UTC
(+3)
i say we kill him
what do you say
2 replies
Open
steephie22 (182 D(S))
07 Nov 14 UTC
Studying abroad (English-speaking country, maybe French)
Since I'm not particularly attached to my country (the Netherlands) or anything and since my English is pretty good by most standards, I can pretty much choose between most Dutch or English-speaking universities.. Which is a daunting task, if taken seriously as I plan to.
Advice? Suggestions? Where do I start?
I can hardly cross the North Sea or Atlantic Ocean on a regular basis while trying to orientate, see what I like and don't like..
133 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
07 Nov 14 UTC
NFL Pick 'em Week 10: A Week of Joy, or Sadness?
We missed Week 9, and the sadness of my 49ers (why don't we run Gore at the goal line anymore?!) and the joy of the Browns as they beat up Andy Dalton and the Bengals (remember them? And I'm calling the Browns as a Wild Card playoff team, I BELIEVE) so, Week 10. 49ers/Saints in a survival game, Chiefs/Bills in a potential playoff elimination game, them Cowboys and Jags in London AGAIN, and the Lombardi/Halas Bowl in Packers/Bears on SNF. Week 10, Pick 'em!
10 replies
Open
KingJohnII (1575 D(B))
10 Nov 14 UTC
new 101 point game
see All Welcome 11, a good field so far, hope some of you can help fill it up. 36 hour turns, full press, not anon, ppsc
0 replies
Open
Check_mate (100 D)
09 Nov 14 UTC
F-Ant and Oz in a world game
Can they get on?

Without going into any details about the game I am in, I am in one, well, ANOTHER one, where these two countries expressed an interest in working together from the start, but it fell to bits. Can anyone show me a game where it has worked?
15 replies
Open
jmo1121109 (3812 D)
10 Nov 14 UTC
(+2)
Mod Team Updates
Please join me in welcoming A_Tin_Can to the mod team. He will be supporting the site in a way similar to Kestas with code and server work. He's recently helped out with many updates from remaking the GR data to spacing out the save and ready buttons.
21 replies
Open
Chaqa (3971 D(B))
10 Nov 14 UTC
Site error?
Just had a site error, I think an apache thing?
14 replies
Open
VillageIdiot (7813 D)
08 Nov 14 UTC
Two strong players needed for WTA/36/Anon game
We need two more players for a game, personally looking for some pretty solid players.
10 replies
Open
mariiopac (0 DX)
09 Nov 14 UTC
Buy real school Diplomatic ([email protected]) passports,driver

Buy real school Diplomatic ([email protected]) passports,driver
7 replies
Open
goldfinger0303 (3157 DMod)
08 Nov 14 UTC
Web Scrapper
Does anyone here know how to program one? I'm looking for a very simple one. It will read a gameID from an excel file, search for that game, and return the year the game ended back to the excel file. How hard would this be to do?
14 replies
Open
semck83 (229 D(B))
07 Nov 14 UTC
(+3)
Free Speech
Here is an article on free speech, which I think is much better than the last article I posted (though imperfect). Discuss if inclined.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/no-offense-the-new-threats-to-free-speech-1414783663
17 replies
Open
JamesYanik (548 D)
09 Nov 14 UTC
World of little or no warcraft
gameID=149831 - 12 Hour Phases - (10 D) buy in
3 replies
Open
JimTheGrey (968 D(S))
06 Nov 14 UTC
Do you feel that?
That's me Jonesing for another Gunboat series. Someone start one. (I'd do it myself, but the hosts have been getting their asses kicked...)
31 replies
Open
mrcjcullen (100 D)
07 Nov 14 UTC
New Player
Hi, I'm a new player looking to refresh my knowledge of the game an to play online, im looking for a standard board game with phases of around a day...there seems to be lots that are passworded... where do i start?
17 replies
Open
MelloAsHello (100 D)
08 Nov 14 UTC
Looking for more for 36-hour game
Details inside..
1 reply
Open
JECE (1248 D)
08 Nov 14 UTC
Al Swearengen
Since 20 September, I have only gotten two PM's and sent none. Both were from Al Swearengen.
20 September: "Very nice point about the referendum, Old Sport!"
Today: "Man, you are such a fag"
When I try to reply to the second PM, I find out that Al Swearengen has muted me. Anyone care to comment?
12 replies
Open
DeathLlama8 (514 D)
08 Nov 14 UTC
Interest in Public Press Series?
So I've always liked the dynamics of Public Press, and was wondering if it was possible to hold a mini-invitational with some number of games and a scoring system. Would we be able to get the mods to shuffle? Would there be any interest for this sort of thing? Has it happened before?

Please post below!
3 replies
Open
KingCyrus (511 D)
06 Nov 14 UTC
(+2)
U.S. Court of Appeals upholds ban on gay marriage
The US Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit reverses district court rulings striking down bans of gay marriage in Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, and Tennessee.
161 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
05 Nov 14 UTC
Red Alert on Capitol Hill as Democrats Sing the Blues, Likely Lose Senate
And somewhere, krellin celebrates...

And if you're a Democrat, 2016 and Hillary can't come fast enough. ;) Sound win for the Republicans, though, no way around that (loathe as I am to say it.) And keep an eye out for the California 33rd in the House race, one of my great friends worked day in and day out for the Ted Lieu campaign on the ground...it'd be great to see her hard work pay off! :)
22 replies
Open
Page 1211 of 1419
FirstPreviousNextLast
Back to top