Of course I know the definition of indoctrination. I just don't know how teachers could be organized indoctrinators. I don't know what an organized indoctrinator is. Firstly, it's redundant. Secondly, are you saying that teachers are government puppets or something? Or are you saying that teachers teach in order to pass on knowledge to people like you so that you can do something with it? Because that would just be OUTRAGEOUS, wouldn't it?

But Krellin, who is the pro Life Dem?

Teachers promote a liberal viewpoint. And since the education system is somewhat organized, I contend that they are organized indoctrinators. That shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

@krellin ... there are vastly many reasons for an artist - which a large number of teachers consider themselves to be - to support the Democrats over Republicans. Is their reasoning ignorant? If you think so, I won't argue, though I wouldn't necessarily agree. But does that change anything? No.

Other teachers generally go whichever way they feel, but, like other workers earning a low salary, one would understand why they would be against the party that openly supports the wealthy.

Of course this is largely a generalization, but it's a rational one.

@Sbyvl ... you'll make yourself look stupid without my help. Keep talking and I'll laugh with everyone else.

You're te one who can't understand a simple sentence.

If that's the crux of your argument against American education, well... you should talk to Newt Gingrich about a moon colony.

http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/why-liberals-think-being-educated-means-being-liberal/

Bo -- teachers consider themselves "artists"? lol Good lord, that's utterly ridiculous. First, I've never heard them refer to themselves as "artists"...but if they do, that goes a hell of a long way to explain why so many of them can't teach themselves out of a box!

As for earnign a low salary, give me a fucking break. That is such a tired, old argument. They work about **half** the hours of a regular salaried worker in the US, and public school teachers come with a set of beneifts, often including the now-unheard of life-long pension plan, that others only dream of.
Give me a fucking break, Bo, teachers are **well** compensated for the work they *actually* do.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=28

Government data -- average salary is $56,069 !!! And this is for about HALF the man hours of a regular salaried employee. Extrapolate that out to a teacher that worked a 2080 hour work year, and you have teachers making about $100,000/year.

Another pathetic lie from the Liberal left.

MY argument against the public school system is overpaid teachers focused on their next raise, who typically spend more time focused on gee-wiz internet and technology gimics instead of actually teaching their subject matter. I've got two kids in school -- in a good school district, mind you -- and I'm *appalled* by teh crap they learn, and the general level of incompetence too frequently displayed by the school system.

Krellin, you're forgetting that lying is an art.

Haaa ha ha ha ha! +10 Sby

Yeah...I remember my kid coming home from school (2nd grade) one time and telling us that *all* flocks of sheep *always* have one black sheep. She was *insistent* on this, because her teacher, who interned in New Zealand, said every flock of sheep always had one black sheep. It took a good bit on convincing, concluding with "Honey, what happens when the one black sheep dies? Does another instantly turn black?" before my child understood the problem.

Now, I understand the teacher was most likely taken out of context, and my child misunderstood....but the problem is we have teachers that *often* say things "out of context" or are "misunderstood", who rely on personal experience to relay infomormation in a careless manner.

On the flip side, my 8th grader last year came home and told me that her social studies teachers blatantly compared Republicans to Nazi's...and in this case, there was no misunderstanding.

So...when I have issues with teachers, the things they teach, the style they use to teach, etc, it is usually based on both personal anecdote and experience (which provide 10 years of *very consistent* anecdotes on teacher's behavior...) as well as national reporting, and allows me to draw a fairly consistent conclusion with the available data....culminating with the widely held national opinion that our education system is broke, our kids are falling behind internationally, and the schools are controlled by Democrat-supported unions...

If you think teaching is an 8-month, 7-hour-a-day job, you really need to try it out sometime (and not observe, no matter how near you are). If you are a teacher and you think that, you need to find a new profession.

And never did I say that all teachers consider themselves artists. Many are. Not nearly all.

what's wrong with a teacher earning 100,000 a year? most people who work for *average* salaries don't have the equivalent of a master's degree. it costs a ton to get a degree that allows you to teach at a good school, and if you consider how long it takes to grade papers at the high school level, you'd see that none of then actually stop working when they get home.

Teachers shouldn't be paid $100,000/year for the same reason that I don't get paid to go on this forum.

By that logic, nobody should be paid because everyone is volunteering to show up to work every day.

By Sbyvl logic, that is.

Wait a second... Sbyvl, are you sure you aren't a communist?

(A little late I realize), But I'd really love to see something like what Krellin suggested here. "I'd like to see a debate where you actually take the viewpoint you do NOT believe in but try to win the debate, to see if anyone around here actually knows what the hell they are normally arguing against.

Chances are...this would be a miserable failure of a debate..."

I've recently gone through the experience of throwing my previous beliefs about politics and economics thrown on the floor, in a pile with the policies I previously argued vehemently against. And having managed to brush past the shield of rhetoric I had built up, (mostly by reading books that provided compelling counter arguments.) I've slowly been rebuilding my personal social philosophical landscape, and much to my surprise I find myself drawn increasingly to the arguments I once fought against.

Which is just a long way of saying, I think that a conversation in that format would be a good way for those of us who are a little more stuck in our ways to examine our own beliefs more carefully.

-D

JoeSam - I'm a technical recruiter -- I hire individuals with advanced Engineering degrees and 15 years experience that make most teachers look like blithering idiots that don't make $100K per year.

I go to every parent teacher conference, I go to curriculum night, I attend all events at my kids school and communicate with my kid's teachers at other times as necessary - I'm very involved in my kids education, and very aware of their teachers capabilities (or sadly, lack thereof). SOME, I would gladly advocate paying $100K per year (F they worked 2080 hours). Others don't deserve a job, but are protected by tenure.

Shall I continue?

Hey krellin, remember when you got a job recruiting engineers when you discovered you couldn't hack it as one yourself?

Was that a feeble attempt at humor?

Hey sbyv welcome back, I missed you :P

Glad to hear it :)

Yes, making 20% of a guys salary for a single placement because I have the technical knowledge to effectively recruit engineers, but don't have to put up with the bullshit of corporate beuarocracy...and I have a stable salary *especially* when the economy goes bad and recruiters get used more...yeah..what a terrible choice I made. No overtime, no stres, just making money....what a terrible choice I made!

Haaaa ha ha ha ha ha!!! Try again, YJ.

It's too bad you are so consistently ill-informed about pretty damned much *everything* you try to discuss.

I'd be tempted to take up the flag from Bo_sox if he doesn't want to do it, but I don't really believe in communism as we've generally seen it realized.

A debate between the merits of free-market capitalistic democracy vs. social democracy, however, would be entertaining.

Remember when YJ went off attacking others because he was jealous of their life, and thought by belittling them he would make himself look and feel better....but, as usual, he just got his ass humiliated once again?

Ahhhh...good times...good times were had by all at YJ's expense.

Keep 'em coming, YJ.