You know, while I disagree with almost everything Putin ever says...

"America has a huge number of guns, ridiculously stupid gun laws, and a huge number of gun deaths. Most European countries have strong gun laws, many fewer guns, and lower gun deaths. You'll simply shout that correlation doesn't equal causation, just like the tobacco lobby did for decades."

I'm sorry, folks--that DOES seem to me to be what many of you are doing.

I keep hearing about Norway...that's one case. ONE.

In all Norway's recent history that we recall--that's ONE.

We have one--if lucky--per YEAR in the US!

Yes, they have a smaller population, but they also have (I believe) less percentage-wise in terms of homicides per capita...

""And you'll actually be able to do that, unlike with gun laws."

You see the evidence you want to see. America has a huge number of guns, ridiculously stupid gun laws, and a huge number of gun deaths. Most European countries have strong gun laws, many fewer guns, and lower gun deaths. You'll simply shout that correlation doesn't equal causation, just like the tobacco lobby did for decades. Meanwhile, more people die. But the gun nutters don't care because they want to play with their toys."

You're a fucking idiot if you don't take into account the total homicide rate, rather than just gun deaths- if I wanted to murder in the UK, I'd use a knife, and the guy would end up just as dead.

You're a fucking idiot if you think that the culture (and particularly attitude towards ethnic groups) doesn't have an effect on these crime levels. You're a fucking idiot if you think that education standards aren't relevant. You're a fucking idiot if you don't think America's absurd policing and imprisonment policies don't have an effect on crime.

You're fucking idiot if you think that this doesn't constitute a situation where the noise is bigger than the data.

You're a fucking idiot.

"Everything is going to happen more often here than places significantly smaller"

Funny, China has 1.3 billion people, how often do you hear of gun crime? They're also much poorer and have many places with much higher urban density.

"Wait, did a gun apologist did concede that lax gun laws makes it easier to kill people with guns? Now we're getting somewhere."

Yeah, but the reason murders happen in that people chose to murder, not how they chose to do it.

" if I wanted to murder in the UK, I'd use a knife, and the guy would end up just as dead."

You're a fucking idiot if you think having a knife makes it just as easy to kill 12 people and wound 70 at a movie theater.

"You're a fucking idiot if you think that the culture (and particularly attitude towards ethnic groups) doesn't have an effect on these crime levels. "

Right, because Europe is an anti-racist paradise.

"You're a fucking idiot if you think that education standards aren't relevant."

Yep, Americans are just dumb, that explains it.

@obiwan

Get me some evidence that homicide rates are reduced by tougher laws. It should compare different states of America over a period of about 10-20 years, and look at the homicide rates before and after changes in gun law in the different states.

My position is that I've not seen enough evidence to say that gun laws help or do harm. Provide me that evidence and I will happily make up my mind on the issue. I refuse to make up my mind prematurely- that is, before I've seen convincing evidence.

We're comparing Very High HDI countries because that's what obi wants to compare, which leaves China out of it. But my friends from India mention lots of gun violence there, elections rigged by militias invading election posts, and we don't hear about that either. We hear more about things that happen in places close to us.

I was in more danger of my life in Hong Kong (got a knife put into my ribs from behind) than I've ever been in Detroit or Chicago. And that's the "good part" of China.

"You're a fucking idiot if you think having a knife makes it just as easy to kill 12 people and wound 70 at a movie theater. "

Massacres are a drop in the ocean when it comes to homicides.

"Right, because Europe is an anti-racist paradise."

No, it isn't. But attitudes are different (even if they are still racist), and this will have an effect. Gang culture is different in Europe than in America, for instance.

"Yep, Americans are just dumb, that explains it. "

Who said it was about being dumb? Maybe its about being on the streets without a proper education that gives you a chance to get a job outside of drug crime that causes people to sign up for these gangs and fight drug wars?

Let's leave China out of this, Putin...

Not exactly the argument to be made for...well, anything that anyone here besides you, possibly, would care for.

@TGM:

A bit old, but here you go, for my first set of stats:

As of January 2011, Top 18 States for Gun Deaths:

"#1, Mississippi
Gun deaths per 100,000: 18.3
Permissive gun laws: 4th out of 50

#2, Arizona
Gun deaths per 100,000: 15
Permissive gun laws: 1st out of 50

#3, Alaska
Gun deaths per 100,000: 17.6
Permissive gun laws: 11th out of 50

#4, Arkansas
Gun deaths per 100,000: 15.1
Permissive gun laws: 7th out of 50

#5, Louisiana
Gun deaths per 100,000: 19.9
Permissive gun laws: 23rd out of 50

#6, New Mexico
Gun deaths per 100,000: 15
Permissive gun laws: 6th out of 50

#7, Alabama
Gun deaths per 100,000: 17.6
Permissive gun laws: 27th out of 50

#8, Nevada
Gun deaths per 100,000: 16.2
Permissive gun laws: 22nd out of 50

#9, Montana
Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.5
Permissive gun laws: 10th out of 50

#10, Wyoming
Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.5
Permissive gun laws: 8th out of 50

#11, Kentucky
Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.4
Permissive gun laws: 5th out of 50

#12, West Virginia
Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.8
Permissive gun laws: 25th out of 50

#13, Tennessee
Gun deaths per 100,000: 15
Permissive gun laws: 31st out of 50

#14, Oklahoma
Gun deaths per 100,000: 13.4
Permissive gun laws: 17th out of 50

#15, Idaho
Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.5
Permissive gun laws: 2nd out of 50

#16, Georgia
Gun deaths per 100,000: 13.1
Permissive gun laws: 13th out of 50

#17, Missouri
Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.9
Permissive gun laws: 12th out of 50

#18, South Carolina
Gun deaths per 100,000: 13.4
Permissive gun laws: 20th out of 50"

So, pretty distinct correlation--

The more permissive the gun laws for open carry and other elements, the higher the death rate via gun.

I'm of the opinion that if more people were allowed to carry weapons in public you would have fewer massacres like this because someone in the theater would have fired back.

@obiwan, I've already said I'm only interested in total homicide rate, not gun-related homicide rate, because people will kill with the available weapons. I've posted several other descriptions of what would in my opinion make a good study, which I'd like you to take note of.

That said, can you get me the ranking of permissiveness of gun laws by state?

@Emac:

I disagree with that assertion--

Dark movie theatre, you honestly think that someone, in a pressure situation like that, could have accurately hit the guy and not, say, just accidently shot someone in front of them?

My request was for the following evidence:

A study that "compares different states of America over a period of about 10-20 years, and look at the total homicide rates before and after changes in the state gun laws (both tightening and loosening of the laws) in the different states"

@TGM:

I thought that was a ranking of permissiveness by state?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

You can check yourself, to give the Murder Rates as of 2010:

Murders per 100,000:

Louisiana's #1 (congrats, PE! lol) with a staggering 11.8, followed by:
Missouri
Mississippi
New Mexico
Arizona
South Carolina--all of these between 6.1-7 murders per 100,000

The lowest states?

New Hampsire
Vermont
Wyoming (I'll admit a bit of surprise there)
Iowa
Minnesota
Idaho
Hawaii
Maine
North Dakota
Utah

All 1.9 per 100,000 or under, with New Hampshire and Vermont nearly tied for the best states with just 1.0 and 1.1 per 100,000.

"The more permissive the gun laws for open carry and other elements, the higher the death rate via gun."

Most gun deaths are from suicide, not homicide.

@obiwan

I was asking for a longitudinal study

I thought that study showed it over several years...?

The suspect's guns:

A Glock, a Remington shotgun, and an AR-15 assault rifle.

As well as a 4th gun, according to police, found in the car.

Every time one of these incidents occur people step up the drum beating for tougher gun laws, as if that in and of itself is going to do anything to stop such event. The US experienced first hard, and is still experiencing, the fact that prohibition laws cause MORE crime and lawlessness. Prohibition didn't stop Americans from drinking, it only made it criminal and drove the sale of alcohol into the hand of criminals. The same is true with narcotics laws. Lots of people still smoke pot, snort and smoke coke, shoot heroine, cook and smoke meth, etc., despite very strict laws against use and possession. The only thing that banning guns would do is drive the gun market even further into the hands of criminal -- remember, felons aren't allowed to purchase guns from gun stores/dealers, they have buy from the already HUGE black market for guns.

I understand the sentiment that arises out of these tragedy, but I just think that a person that is motivated enough to do something as horrific as what this guys did, isn't going to be deterred by stiffer gun laws, nor even an outright ban.

@obiwan
"I thought that study showed it over several years...?"


My point is that you look at the change in crime rate in a state before and after a law, vs the crime rate in other states.

"The more permissive the gun laws for open carry and other elements, the higher the death rate via gun."

Don't NH and VT completely defy this statement's veracity? Both have VERY liberal gun laws.

Personally -- and I know this is a hot button issue for people like Putin -- I think an armed population as insured by the 2nd Amendment was and remains the last resort of the People to keep tyranny from taking over their government. As Jefferson said, the government should fear the people, not the other way around. Is there ever a government that is afraid of an unarmed populace? There is a very important reason that the Red Coats were marching to Concord on that fateful day -- they were going to destroy a store of arms that the colonists had amassed.

Kind of apropos today considering the President of the United States is claiming that he has the right to sign the UN Small Arms Treaty without Congressional approval. Can you say TYRANNY boys and girls?!?

*SIGH*

I must ask...and I'm going to regret it, I know I will, but I must ask...

From whence does this "WE MUST BE ARMED IN CASE THE GUV'R'MINT'S A-GONNA GIT US!" mentality stem?

Why is there constantly a fear among a certain sect of Americans that the government is out to deny you each and every last one of your liberties and that they can and will and--*somehow--your special little toy gun will, with your buddies, be an adequate defense against the best military force in the world, if they ever DID enforce a 1984-style government?



Why the paranoia?

A certain level of skepticism in the government is good, it's healthy, it's what Madison and Jefferson and the Framers had in mind, to slow the majority and to keep the government accountable to the people...

That does NOT translate to "OH MY GOD I NEED MY GUNS BUSH/OBAMA/ROMNEY/MICKEY HOUSE IS OUT TOY TYRANNIZE ME!!!:

It's like the constant need for conspiracy theories in this country--

It's sickening, childish, and frankly, you not only make your own tin foil-wearing selves look the fool, but you make we Americans as a whole look like paranoid freaks to the rest of the world.

Grow up.

"Can you say TYRANNY boys and girls?!?"

Can you say MELODRAMATIC PARANOID FEAR-MONGER boys and girls?!?

For all you gun-toting imbeciles here's an idea ...... as all the freaks, nutters and criminals are already fully armed to the teeth why not back a plan where the govt hand out weapons to all the good guys and even things up a bit. Think how safe you'd all be if everybody had a gun, perfection !!

@Nigee, "For all you gun-toting imbeciles here's an idea ...... as all the freaks, nutters and criminals are already fully armed to the teeth why not back a plan where the govt hand out weapons to all the good guys and even things up a bit. Think how safe you'd all be if everybody had a gun, perfection !!"

They do this in Switzerland. Homicide rate: 0.7 per 100,000

obiwanobiwan, Do you think the shooter went looking for a firefight or sitting ducks? Do you think he would have stayed cool while taking fire? Would he have methodically and coolly looked on the floor the next aisle over for victims if he had rounds flying back at him and thought he might find himself looking down the barrel of a locked and loaded weapon when he peeked down that aisle? I'm not trying to ridicule you. I'm trying to introduce a line of thought I don't think you consider. I believe this sick piece of shit went looking for helpless victims and he would have shit his pants and ran faster than Bolt out of that theater when the first round whizzed by his ear. Of course I could be wrong.