The CEOs of companies don't give a flying fuck about society; they care about money!

Honestly, if I ever found myself in an anarchy, you know what I'd do:

I'd round up a group of strong people, promise them wealth and slowly start taking control by force.

Which is what always happens...
Anarchies don't last.

@Abgemacht: Why the fuck would you do that? In my opinion, only evil people that have no business in society would do that.

@abgemacht - Maybe. But not necessarily. I'd love to own an antiques, books and collectibles store (not used books, but real, quaility antique books and furniture and collectibles). But in the present economy, I'm unlikely to succeed in that venture nor do I have the funds to get started. I would also like to be a professional poker player, but that requires a serious bankroll and has it's own share of risk. So I continue with software development and, even if I hated it, I would continue because I'm adverse to major risk.

@CM - I have no problem with equal footing from birth. Primary education should be equally available to all. But how the person approaches their primary school should still determine whetehr they get into advanced schools. College, as it is, is perfectly acceptable so long as the K-12 education system is fair. Unfortunately, in today's society, it isn't. But that said, not everyone has the ability to compete on an equal footing and those who have a certain skill or intellectual capacity should have every right to use it to better themselves more than the unskilled and unmotivated. I worked hard in school from 4th grade on (first year I got straight As) and worked hard to establish myself as a software developer worthy of the reat I bill my clients. Why should I have to drive the same basic car and live in the same basic house as the garbage man?

@Abgemacht: Why the fuck would you do that? In my opinion, only evil people that have no business in society would do that.
yes, but there are evil people, lots of them, greedy people, violent people, unscrupulous people, liars, cheaters, etc.. who tear down and take apart the society.
Who or what in an anarchy protects the citizens against the evil people?

sorry, I meant @CM ^

The point is, and LordVipor touched on it, these people do exist. Without a legal system, there is no keeping these people under control and protecting the citizenry from them. And a legal system requires a government entity of some sort, which belies the idea of an anarchy being a feasible form of society.

@CM

Why wouldn't I? I'm convinced that if I didn't someone else would, so it might as well be me. I'm not sure you'd be justified in calling me evil. What if I tried to make a prosperous society?

@abgemacht - Any ruler that is not God is evil. It says in 1 Samuel "to seek the rule of man is to reject the rule of God"

@Draugnar - But those evil people still do evil with government, so what's the point of having government?

@CM - They will continue to do evil and not be locked up and segregated from society where their evil is a one time abberation in most cases. Yes, there are occassions where the evil is repeated over and over until they are caught, but most crimes are solved fairly early in the criminal's career.

@CM

Good point. The bible also says, "“For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.”

Looks like it's time to kill every teenager in the US.

@CM - and there are flying insects with 4 legs according to the Bible. Do not use the OT as a justification for the real world. The Bible isn't the only "holy book" and using it to declare things as evil is forcing your views on the rest of us. I could just as easily say.

"You cannot love everyone; it is ridiculous to think you can. If you love everyone and everything you lose your natural powers of selection and wind up being a pretty poor judge of character and quality. If anything is used too freely it loses its true meaning. Therefore you should love strongly and completely those who deserve your love, but never turn the other cheek to your enemy!"

@CM

The bible also says, "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

That would be good to implement in your anarchy.

@abgemacht: Paul says in Galatians that we do not need to follow the laws of Leviticus. But what Samuel said wasn't a law, it was fact.

@Draugnar: The four led thing is a figure of speech. It just means insects that walk on the ground all the time.

@CM - no, Samuel's writings are "truths"; a philisophical/religious view. Facts are provable and beyond interpretation and contention. You can't prove the existence of God, therefore nothing in the Bible about God's authority is fact.

Mind you, I am a Christian but I live through Christ by faith and fully realize I can neither prove his existence or disprove a lack of his existence. Therefore nothing in the bible is fact to me, but it is (well much of it is) the truth. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." He never said "I am the facts."

@CM

What? That passage was from Exodus, not Leviticus. Do we also not have to listen to that?

@CM and what of my other quote from another non-Judeau-Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist religious text?

@Draug

Are you sure? I could have sworn it was Jesus that said, "Just the facts, ma'am."

@CM - Romans 6:14: "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Samuel's writings are irrelevant according to Paul.

Abgemacht +1. Love it!

@Draugnar: Since when are Samuel's writings law? Paul meant the laws of Leviticus and Exodus and Deuteronomy. Samuel's writings are just the writings of a prophet. I believe God wants anarchy, and until you can show me that the Bible doesn't say that, I will always be an anarchist.

Anyway, I'm going to bed, so I'll reply in the morning.

'And Samuel said to all the people, "Do you see him whom the LORD has chosen? There is none like him among all the people." And all the people shouted, "Long live the king!"'

Why would they praise a king if God wanted anarchy?

The Bible doesn't say that God wants/doesn't want us to have automobiles, so what is your view on electricity and combustion engines? Are you a Mormon because the bible doesn't mention it as good, therefore it must be evil?

Here is 1 Samuel 8, where your quote comes from. Reread it and discover the truth, that the Israelites sought to reject God's rule and suplant it with an appointed King. This spoke to their heart, not to the validity of a government, but to the positioning of who they worshipped; God or an appointed king. Note that not all government forms are about leading the people. The Republic founded in America is about the people *being* the government. We do not follow a king or other leader who has absolute power as a king, but instead we are the government; government of, by, and for the people. As such, God can still be our King as those of us who chose still worship Him. And the government, including the President, works for us in theory. Does our republic need a kick in the ass? Absolutely. But nothing about 1 Samuel says God believes in anarchy. It is a condemnation of putting man above God in the order of things. But Samuel's sons were judges and Samuel, being a prophet of God, was a man highly revered and his words, being the words of God, were followed. I must reiterate that 1 Samuel 8 is about the heart of the people and their desire to have an individual tell them what to do; a false god in fleshly form. It is not a condemnation of government.

1 Samuel 8 - Israel Seeks a King
8:1 In his old age Samuel appointed his sons as judges over Israel. 8:2 The name of his firstborn son was Joel, and the name of his second son was Abijah. They were judges in Beer Sheba. 8:3 But his sons did not follow his ways. Instead, they made money dishonestly, accepted bribes, and perverted justice.

8:4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and approached Samuel at Ramah. 8:5 They said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons don’t follow your ways. So now appoint over us a king to lead us, just like all the other nations have.”

8:6 But this request displeased Samuel, for they said, “Give us a king to lead us.” So Samuel prayed to the Lord. 8:7 The Lord said to Samuel, “Do everything the people request of you. For it is not you that they have rejected, but it is me that they have rejected as their king. 8:8 Just as they have done from the day that I brought them up from Egypt until this very day, they have rejected me and have served other gods. This is what they are also doing to you. 8:9 So now do as they say. But seriously warn them and make them aware of the policies of the king who will rule over them.”

8:10 So Samuel spoke all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 8:11 He said, “Here are the policies of the king who will rule over you: He will conscript your sons and put them in his chariot forces and in his cavalry; they will run in front of his chariot. 8:12 He will appoint for himself leaders of thousands and leaders of fifties, as well as those who plow his ground, reap his harvest, and make his weapons of war and his chariot equipment. 8:13 He will take your daughters to be ointment makers, cooks, and bakers. 8:14 He will take your best fields and vineyards and give them to his own servants. 8:15 He will demand a tenth of your seed and of the produce of your vineyards and give it to his administrators and his servants. 8:16 He will take your male and female servants, as well as your best cattle and your donkeys, and assign them for his own use. 8:17 He will demand a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will be his servants. 8:18 In that day you will cry out because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the Lord won’t answer you in that day.”

8:19 But the people refused to heed Samuel’s warning. Instead they said, “No! There will be a king over us! 8:20 We will be like all the other nations. Our king will judge us and lead us and fight our battles.”

8:21 So Samuel listened to everything the people said and then reported it to the Lord. 8:22 The Lord said to Samuel, “Do as they say and install a king over them.” Then Samuel said to the men of Israel, “Each of you go back to his own city.”

Cm.

Without government, you do not have a life. Society does not function.

People kill people over grudges who otherwise would not have. Why? No authority tells them that it is bad.

I'm not going to beat around the bush with you: people need an authority to appeal to, plain and simple.

Sometimes its religion, which can even form the state and become a theocracy. In the modern age it is mostly government, or society, of which government is an extension.

Do you really think that we humans have created anything that it is not in our nature to create?

Of course not! Any talk of something we humans do of being "unnatural" in some way is bunk, since we are animals, all our behaviors are natural.

So government is natural just as much as anything else, just as much as justice or as barter (or money in this case).

List for me please the things that would get better with no government. Then honestly and truthfully list the things that would get worse without a government, and weigh them against each other. You do not have to do this in public, do it alone, to yourself, but be honest with yourself, without blind bias against "authority" of any sort.

You do bring up good points, but as I see it, the government (in its present state) is just another tool for the ruling classes. Most politicians are from rich or powerful families, or at least have links to them. Therefore the ruling classes use the government to help them keep the lower classes down. As for examples of politicians: George Bush and then his son. The Gandhi dynasty in India (nothing to do with Mahondas, well he and Nehru were friends...). Look at Cheney and Halliburton. The rich *generally* use the government to help fulfill their own interests. They sometimes clash, but that is quite rare, as governments consistently put the rights of the rich and corporations before the rights of the poor.

without reading this thread, can one tell me how price or value has anything to do with religion?

It is an example of authority, which Thucy believes every/most human/s needs, to an extent.