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DrAxel (103 D)
05 Feb 10 UTC
Question
I have to go out of the nation in coming days....
My grandmother is very ill and likely isn't going to live much longer, so I am flying to China in 3 days. I will likely be there for a few weeks. Can I be taken out of my games to maybe give another person a chance to take the nations I play as?
2 replies
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CommanderDI (100 D)
04 Feb 10 UTC
live game now!
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=20807
0 replies
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The_Master_Warrior (10 D)
26 Jan 10 UTC
My Views
I'm getting sick of having to reiterate my views on the hot topics. See below.

(Please refrain from posting until I post in order to avoid confusion)
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Invictus (240 D)
26 Jan 10 UTC
Thucydides, my views on the death penalty are almost exactly how the system works now.
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
26 Jan 10 UTC
I'll just wire in with mine at this point:

Gay marriage: Yes - gay marriage should be allowed.
Guns: Guns are bad. No private individual should be allowed to own a gun.
Prayer in School: I agree with TMW - private prayer by students is ok, school-led prayer is wrong in public schools. (In fact I believe that ALL schools should be public schools, so school-led prayer is thus wrong in all schools)
Death Penalty: I agree with TMW - I oppose the death penalty.
Abortion: Yes - up to a given number of weeks into the pregnancy. It's a woman's body, so it's her choice.
Evolution in School: Teach evolution. Mention intelligent design, but only in the context of a bullshit theory that has no scientific basis and should be discounted.
War in Iraq: Wrong. We should never have gone into Iraq.
War in Afghanistan: We had a good reason to go in, but we've made a lot of bad decisions since. Unfortunately we will be in Afghanistan for quite a while to come...
Gitmo/CIA Blacksites/Torture: No. They breach the Geneva convention. Put the Guantanamo detainees on trial, or release them at once. Torture? Absolutely not. A confession under torture is worthless anyway.
guy~~ (3779 D(B))
26 Jan 10 UTC
Thucydides re: being gay is not genetic.

I think there are some gay people that are born gay, and I think there are some that are socialized into it (sexual abuse, no proper male role model, etc), and I think there are gay people where a bit of both socializing and genes may effect sexuality. The same could also be said for straight people as well.

But regardless of these three processes, I would still argue that there is no conscious choice to be gay or straight, it is something you are. I would maybe argue that for some bisexual people there is a choice, but it may be a choice as to which sex they would like to marry or be with emotionally, or it could be a choice about which person to be with emotiaonlly, rather than base the decision on what is between their partner's legs.
mel1980 (0 DX)
26 Jan 10 UTC
guy +1
Thucydides (864 D(B))
26 Jan 10 UTC
Interesting.

By the way Invictus, I know that that's the way it is now. That's why it should be abolished, as it is now.

But personally I am against capital punishment per se, that is, no matter what.

Anyway you should all join a world map live game tonight
gameID=20093
Thucydides (864 D(B))
26 Jan 10 UTC
Oh I definitely agree it's not a conscious choice btw. Lol. I was just pondering these two friends of mine the other day and that thought struck me. Anyway.

gameID=20093

lol sorry i'll stop spamming yall now
Invictus (240 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
Well, I guess that's your view. The only problems with capital punishment are moral ones now with all the mandatory appeals and proliferation of DNA testing. Mistakes have certainly been made in the past, but some of the worst sort of criminals deserve the ultimate punishment.
SEcki (1171 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
The ultimate test of a civil society is how they treat those that abandon the society all together. Also, if we want to live in a society that respect our personal freedoms, it will *always* be possible for the worst crimes to happen. I see it as a moral win, to not use capital punishment anymore. Societies that do not use it are imo morally more right than societies that do. Like giving women and men equal rights.

No matter what a human being has done - by not executing one of the worst deeds on him as a revenge (and, c'mon, murder is most often punished really severe in most jurisdictions), we show that we indeed go to a civil society. We as a society send the message to *not* lower us to the level of the criminals. And this is the reason human beings do not deserve the ultimate punishment - because no one deserves it. No matter what.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
27 Jan 10 UTC
When a person is executed for murder, two murders have happened, one perpetrated by the state and another perpetrated by the murderer.

And when I say the state, more loosely it means society. Us. You and me say to that person, you are not even worth your life. We are going to kill you, because that's how worthless you are.

That's the ultimate removal of humanity. It's cruel and unusual no matter how you do it. I think people who support capital punishment haven't really thought about those that get executed as much as they should. I know I didn't. I supported it up until about 4 months ago myself. When I saw data that proved it does not work as a deterrent and then saw a video of death row inmates, I was immediately convinced.

Or just watch Dead Man Walking. How that movie couldn't change a person's mind, I don't know.

Not to mention the fact that liberalized societies like Germany, which do no have the death penalty, have much lower crime rates than here. There is as yet unproven evidence that executing prisoners actually encourages crime, in a downward spiral of hate and retribution.

Tell me, in what way is revenge a noble goal? Since when is revenge the same as justice? Justice should set the wrongs right. You do that by imprisoning the person, and if they can be rehabilitated you do that. But you don't kill them. What if it turns out they were innocent in 15 years, but whoops, you killed em.
tilMletokill (100 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
People who take a life should lose there own, it is not revenge. Why waste our tax money on someones life that wouldnt give five cents for the person they killed.
tilMletokill (100 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
Thucydides you are saying that every time someone dies in death row it is societys fault.
Acosmist (0 DX)
27 Jan 10 UTC
"When a person is executed for murder, two murders have happened, one perpetrated by the state and another perpetrated by the murderer."

The unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought? That can't be.
figlesquidge (2131 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
If we a re going to kill those who have taken a life, surely they will be more keep to re-offend if it means they will escape. Moreover, if it is a rare punishment, then (certainly here in the UK) surely to be given the death penalty would soon become synonymous with martyrdom?


(I know this contradicts what I've said above, but I'm half playing devils advocate, and half developing my view as we go)
orathaic (1009 D(B))
27 Jan 10 UTC
@tilMletokill: as discussed the appeals and other processes associated with the death penalty in America often over run the cost of life imprisonment. (these safeguards being in place to prevent innocent people being executed)

and yes every time Society chooses to kill someone (on death row) it is societies choice, more specifically the Judge/Jury who passed down the death sentence, more practically the person adminstering the lethal injection, more generally they do so with the understanding that society in general agrees (even if some individuals object, and stand outside the prison holding placards)

As Thuc said the exeuction of a prisoner does not redress the wrongs they have commited. The person needs to be imprisoned only to protect other members of society from their behaviour.

That said I do not think it is ok for rich people to destroy the property of other just because they can afford to replace it - i'd rather more severe punishments for certain white collar crimes.

lastly, the US has the highest prison population (per person) in the world, 7 times more prisoners per capita than Canada. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#Population_statistics)
SEcki (1171 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
> People who take a life should lose there own,

Why? Eye for an eye? Or the feeling that the offender will find a crulesome detah like he gave to another person? Those evil doers are the ones that stir up the devil in all of us - whenever a crulesome crime is committed people come to the front laying out their innerst desire to torute the offender, to be as cruel as possible, to make the offender suffer. Like one said in this thread - "life imprisonment is more torture". Yes, torture - those people we condemn seem to waken up the monster that lies in all of us. Do you feel relieved when people are killed by the state? Does it make your tummy feel good that the "trash" is gone for ever?

> it is not revenge.

What is it then?

> Why waste our tax money on someones life that wouldnt give five cents for the person they killed.

Because we are striving for a civil society?! If you just go by tax money spent, you should first start killing the military, or the CEOs of bankrupt companies. The money squandered there is much more than you spent on prisions, isn't it? Alas, the term "wasting tax money" in comparsion to killing someone just shows that you make an animal, a monster of those on the death row. You stop thinking of tehm as human beings that are capable of niceness, laughter and love. You disfigure them into thing that you can terminate so it won't waste money anymore. See above - those offenders already made your inenr monster come forward and show that you are capable of treating other human beings as things, as trash that can be terminated. A behaivoir that also serial killers imploy - to dehumanize their victims.

(playing a bit devil's advocate, too)
Thucydides (864 D(B))
27 Jan 10 UTC
"People who take a life should lose there own, it is not revenge. Why waste our tax money on someones life that wouldnt give five cents for the person they killed."

As I have SAID, it costs more in LEGAL FEES to kill someone than it does to keep them in prison, MAXIMUM SECURITY prison, their whole lives.

And as I have also said, it is heartless and crude to look at it in economic terms anyway. These are people's LIVES.

"Thucydides you are saying that every time someone dies in death row it is societys fault."

I am saying that society allows it, and in its essence it amounts to a society as a whole executing the person. The only difference between a lynching and an execution is the time elapsed between conviction and execution.

"The unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought? That can't be."

The only thing that makes capital punishment any different than this statement is the part about unlawful. It SHOULD be unlawful, but we have unjust laws. Other than that, yes, it is the killing of a human being with premeditated malice.

Also the escape argument is sort of stupid, sorry figle.

If you assume 1 out of every 250 prisoners will ever escape (which is a ridiculously high number already), and that, again very generously, half of these will committ a crime again, and that half of these are murders, you are looking at 1 in 1000 second murders.

Now think of this number. Assume 1 in 1000 innocent people are accidentally executed in the same period. That's 1 in 1000 innocent people that didn't have to die. That's the same number as above. The only difference is, the state is held responsible, instead some lunatic.

Another difference is that that figure of 1 in 1000 is actually quite low. It is estimated (in the US) to be actually disturbingly higher. God knows what it's like in China or Saudi.





Honestly, what basis is there for capital punishment? The utilitarian argument is out, the evidence is against you. The retribution/revenge argument is debatable as well as morally despicable. Why? That's my question. Why are you bloodthirsty.

Now imagine this statistic
Thucydides (864 D(B))
27 Jan 10 UTC
oh whoops that last didn't get backspaced
Invictus (240 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
I highly doubt that any innocent people are executed with the near universal use of DNA evidence and huge weight juries put on DNA evidence and the long appeals process. The very, very worst of society should be gotten rid of. It's not about deterrence, it's about the ultimate punishment for the ultimate crime.
Raffaello (361 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
"I highly doubt that any innocent people are executed with the near universal use of DNA evidence and huge weight juries put on DNA evidence and the long appeals process."

Sorry, but this is sticking the head in the sand. You can say that you are ready to accept a certain number of innocent people receiving capital punishment, but not realizing that this actually happens is naive.
SEcki (1171 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
The ultimate test of a civil society is how they treat those that abandon the society all together. Also, if we want to live in a society that respect our personal freedoms, it will *always* be possible for the worst crimes to happen. I see it as a moral win, to not use capital punishment anymore. Societies that do not use it are imo morally more right than societies that do. Like giving women and men equal rights.

No matter what a human being has done - by not executing one of the worst deeds on him as a revenge (and, c'mon, murder is most often punished really severe in most jurisdictions), we show that we indeed go to a civil society. We as a society send the message to *not* lower us to the level of the criminals. And this is the reason human beings do not deserve the ultimate punishment - because no one deserves it. No matter what.
Invictus (240 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
No, I don't think it happens. There's simply too many processes that go into a capital case that a wrongful execution is highly unlikely with the sort of evidence collection and exhaustive (and mandatory) appeals we have today. There certainly have been mistakes in the past, but I can't see anything wrong with executing the Ted Bundys of the world.
Nostradumass (119 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
Invictus - is there a certain "false positive" rate that you're comfortable with? "Highly unlikely" still leaves room for an error, and when you execute someone, there is no correction for that error.
warsprite (152 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
@ Invictus Modern forensics while much better than the past methods is not fullproof, the human factor is still there, because it often depends on interpetation. Also not all cases use physical evidence. Circumstantal evidence can be used to convict people, eye witness have been shown so unreliable even the victums have picked the wrong people out of lineups, or incorrectly related events. Blindly trusting any system can have very tragic results. Bundy while evil was so because he was mentally ill. Are you calling for death of all the mentally ill that have potental of being violent, including people suffering from depression?
Invictus (240 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
Are you seriously reading that I advocate killing all mentally ill people because I think executing Ted Bundy was the right decision? I'm genuinely offended by that.

All I'm saying is that it is far less likely today for an innocent man to be executed. A lack of physical evidence is hardly ever enough to convict of even far lesser crimes, let alone one with all the institutionalized safeguards as a capital case.

All I'm saying is that the system is set up very effectively to prevent a false conviction. As in any human system there will be errors, but I don't think that's enough of a reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are awful people who need to be gotten rid of, and the best we can do is make it as hard as possible to harm an innocent. It's not blind trust, but it is an understanding that it's the best we can hope for.
SEcki (1171 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
> There are awful people who need to be gotten rid of

I shuddered when I read that.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
27 Jan 10 UTC
Haha Invictus... sorry but it happens frequently, accepting the risk is one thing, denying it occurs is ludicrous.

Supreme Court Justice Harry Blackmun, who originally ruled in favor of the death penalty in Furman v. Georgia (1972), said this in 1994:

“From this day forward, I no longer shall tinker with the machinery of death. For more than 20 years I have endeavored -- indeed, I have struggled--along with a majority of this Court, to develop procedural and substantive rules that would lend more than the mere appearance of fairness to the death penalty endeavor. Rather than continue to coddle the Court's delusion that the desired level of fairness has been achieved and the need for regulation eviscerated, I feel morally and intellectually obligated simply to concede that the death penalty experiment has failed.”

He was referring to glaring inequalities in the application of the death penalty to males, minorities, and the economically disadvantaged. The proportion of murder cases wherein these groups received a death penalty sentence was above the ratio of murders committed by these groups compared to murders on the whole. In 1972, this was brought to the Court's attention, and the judges ruled that it should be reformed or abolished. The nation took the course of reform. However, nothing changed. Minorities, males, and low income groups are still executed more than their fair share dictates, revealing a gross, if subconscious bias on the part of sentencing courts against these groups.

Regarding wrongful sentences: In 1987 the Stanford Law Review published a detailed examination of about 350 cases involving convictions of individuals, later found to be innocent. The conclusions were again unequivocal. If the evidence failed “to convince the reader of the fallibility of human judgment,” the authors wrote, “then nothing will.” Five years later, in 1992, the study was updated. The conclusions remained the same.

In 1992 the Innocence project was founded and began exonerating, or attempting to exonerate, prisoners based on new evidence. Dozens of cases cropped up, and continue to do so.

However, even this was not always enough. In 1993, a majority on the Supreme Court refused a request for a stay of execution so that evidence of possible innocence of a condemned man in Texas, Leonel Herrera, could be examined. The new evidence had come to light some eight years after Herrera’s trial. On appeal, six members of the Supreme Court concluded the threshold for mandating such a review was “extraordinarily high.” In Herrera’s case it had not been met. If the Court granted this request, six justices concluded, more would surely follow and the system would fall of its own weight.

Of this Blackmun wrote: “Of one thing I am certain, just as an execution without adequate safeguards is unacceptable, so too is an execution when the condemned prisoner can prove that he is innocent. The execution of a person who can show that he is innocent comes perilously close to simple murder.”

The last words of Leonel Herrera (#53), executed January 25, 1993:

"I am innocent, innocent, innocent. Make no mistake about this; I owe society nothing. Continue the struggle for human rights, helping those who are innocent, especially Mr. Graham. I am an innocent man, and something very wrong is taking place tonight. May God bless you all. I am ready."

On June 12, 2000 three colleagues, working at Columbia University Law School and New York University’s Sociology Department, released: "A Broken System: Error Rates in Capital Cases, 1973-1995". The executive summary was clear and direct. Serious, documented, reversible errors had been found in 68% of the 4,500 (plus) cases since capital punishment had been reinstated.

In January 2000, after the 13th inmate had been released from death row due to wrongful conviction. Governor Ryan of Illinois declared a moratorium, saying:

"Our capital [punishment] system is haunted by the demon of error, error in determining guilt and error in determining who among the guilty deserves to die. What effect was race having? What effect was poverty having? Because of all these reasons, today I am commuting the sentences of all Death Row inmates."

Since 1995, the murder rate in states with the death penalty (of which there are only 35), has remained on average 40% than in states without it. Not to mention other countries where capital punishment has been abolished entirely.

Perhaps most recently is the case of Cameron Todd Willingham. In 1991 there was a fire at his home. He got out alive, but his three daughters died. He was tried for arson and the murder of his three children, though he maintained innocence, saying he was asleep at the time the fire started. He was found guilty and sentenced to die. However, later, starting in 2004, arson scientists and members of the Texas Forensic Science Commission reviewed the case and concluded the arson conviction was based on bad science. Just before the Texas Forensic Science commission was to hear a report on the accuracy of the conviction, Texas governor Rick Perry replaced members of the Commission, postponing the report indefinitely. As a result, no appeal was able to be entered, and Willingham was executed. Needless to say, I am not going to be voting for Mr. Perry in the 2010 election he wants so badly to win.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Perry#Cameron_Todd_Willingham

Killing is wrong, I don't care who is doing it.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
27 Jan 10 UTC
Should read "has remained on average 40% HIGHER than states without it." Sorry bout that.
warsprite (152 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
Not much consulation if you are that someone who is getting exacuted. I did not suggest you advocate all the mentally ill be exacuted just the potentally violent ones. After all Bundy was mentally ill and you wanted him to be exacuted.
Invictus (240 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
Thanks, Sicarius. I especially like the quote from my disgraced Governor Ryan, who commuted the sentences for purely political reasons. Your article actually supports my view, in that new efforts at institutional safeguards make a false conviction and execution less likely. I'm merely saying that the most heinous murders ought to be given the most severe punishment for their actions.

"> There are awful people who need to be gotten rid of

I shuddered when I read that. "

The hell you did. Don't get so holier-than-thou by thinking anyone who supports the death penalty is some heartless murderer himself. These people who are executed are monsters and society is better off without them.

It's stuff like this that you should shudder at, SEcki, not someone arguing for the rule of law.
http://crunkish.com/top-ten-most-gruesome-murders/
Invictus (240 D)
27 Jan 10 UTC
That's pretty much the same thing warsprite, and just as insulting.

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203 replies
Dunecat (5899 D)
04 Feb 10 UTC
Dune: Imperial Hegemony End of Game Statements
Wow. What a game. Your thoughts?
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zscheck (2531 D)
04 Feb 10 UTC
hey. join.
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=20804

it will be fun, i promise.
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SirBayer (480 D)
04 Feb 10 UTC
Simple, potentially retarded question
I'm a returning old member, trying to get a handle on what's changed since I've been gone, and my big stumbling block is the new World-variant.
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jman777 (407 D)
03 Feb 10 UTC
What is up with people asking questions about people asking questions in the forums?
I mean....seriously guys, are we that pathetic?
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gspatton (810 D)
04 Feb 10 UTC
New Player
Hi everyone - new the site and the game. Can I assume games with passwords mean you have to be invited by the creator to play? I signed up for one game, is it obivous on how to make orders?
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Le_Roi (913 D)
03 Feb 10 UTC
Webdiplomacy IRC
Chat system up.
It's a bit impromptu, but easy.
Under mibbit irc, the room is #diplo.
For those who don't wish to install an irc, just go to mibbit.com, and in chatroom, enter #diplo. :)
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Parallelopiped (691 D)
04 Feb 10 UTC
WTA Rules!
There is an opening for a cunning Austrian in the following game
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=14351&msgCountryID=0
It looks like they're all having fun (except for me - I got slaughtered. Ho hum)
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StevenC. (1047 D(B))
01 Feb 10 UTC
Hello, everyone.
Just taking a rare moment to look at my games and to see if anything interesting's happened lately. ; )
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klokskap (550 D)
04 Feb 10 UTC
Live Game
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airborne (154 D)
30 Jan 10 UTC
Modern World Map
100 years later...
(Province formulas to be made...)
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pietro2010 (0 DX)
04 Feb 10 UTC
A new Italian player
Hi all, I'm new in webDiplomacy.
Are there other italian players here?
Join us to create a game!
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denis (864 D)
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Stars on Thread..
What do they mean?
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raapers (3044 D)
04 Feb 10 UTC
Live Gunboat
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Dan-i-Am 88 (348 D)
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http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=20753
Only needs 3 more to go!
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general (100 D)
04 Feb 10 UTC
Diplomacy Map
I'm actually quite a fan of maps and have a few maps/posters of maps (yes there is a difference!) around my room.
Could anyone suggest a good image (jpg, tiff, etc.) which I can download and printout.
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general (100 D)
04 Feb 10 UTC
MOD: Please unpause game
The game gameID=19696 has been paused now for quite some time. Initially it started with about 3 CDs and we carried on playing for the sake of it. Now we're ready to draw but Germany has disappeared and does not wish to unpause. Could this game be unpaused and drawn between the remaining powers.
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Semp (100 D)
04 Feb 10 UTC
need one more - live game in 3 minutes
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Semp (100 D)
04 Feb 10 UTC
Join Live Game - starts in 20 minutes
Let's try it again... 5 minute phase, no messaging, anonymous

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Semp (100 D)
04 Feb 10 UTC
join a quick game - starts in 12 minutes
gunboat - no messages - anonymous

gameID=20750
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Semp (100 D)
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Join Live Game - starts in 20 minutes
gunboat live - anonymous - no messages during game -
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denis (864 D)
04 Feb 10 UTC
Anyone Up for a duel?
http://oli.rhoen.de/webdiplomacy/board.php?gameID=266
come join!! PM me for the password
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Jamiet99uk (808 D)
03 Feb 10 UTC
Profile problem
In my profile, there is a link called 'replies' which summarises replies I have posted to forum threads. However it has not updated for weeks.

What's the problem?
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MarcusAurelius (171 D)
31 Jan 10 UTC
Worldwide map. Game starts wednesday night!!!
Hey! Join this Worldwide map variant. Starts wednesday, processes every 2 days.

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jeromeblack (129 D)
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Live Game in 30 mins.
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5nk (0 DX)
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Live gunboat game starting in 1.5 hours
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jeromeblack (129 D)
03 Feb 10 UTC
20 Min Phases
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jeromeblack (129 D)
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