@Ghost - The credits have to come from a company. You cycling is not a company, so you would not get credits for it.
And I did not say anything about having just one employer. All employers give their workers less than what they deserve, and a worker has no choice but to accept the money one company offers him.

"@Ghost - The credits have to come from a company. You cycling is not a company, so you would not get credits for it."

Okay, I'll set up "Cycling Ghosts Inc. - Shadow our cyclists if you have 120 credits" and employ lots of people to do cycling, and I'll work alongside them.

"And I did not say anything about having just one employer. All employers give their workers less than what they deserve, and a worker has no choice but to accept the money one company offers him."

Start up your own business.

@Ghost: The company has to make something, or provide a service. That company does not.

@Ghost: "Start up your own business"
We are talking about the working class here. They do not have the tools to start their own business.

@Ghost: There is also an economic theory that is like this, it's called mutualism. The only difference is that it has a price system. The way prices would be decided would be the total amount of credits (like the credits I introlduced earlier) given out for the making of whatever the object is. The problem with this is it is impossible to determine, for example, how much an the president of the company contributes to the making of it's products. What do you think?

"We are talking about the working class here. They do not have the tools to start their own business."

They do in a capitalist society.

I read through this and i have to agree that the idea of credits that are reusable is total nonsense. I think it was draugnar that asked why it was not possible to buy a nice car over and over again. The credits dont disappear so i have the same amount of credits as i did before i got the car. How would i buy a house? Would i have to do a month full of hard manual labor at 12 hour days? Could i take out a loan? I take out a 2 million credit loan, go on a spending frenzy. I got all my nice stuff but since the credits dont disappear i give them right back to repay my loan.

Who would decide what businesses are useful and get to stay and what ones are inefficient and are discontinued? So pretty much EVERYTHING from values of goods to the value of work is determined by the government? Geez and i thought you were an anarchist.

"@Ghost: The company has to make something, or provide a service. That company does not."

I've told you, it let's people slipstream when cycling to work or whatever. We could even take bookings.

"@Ghost: "Start up your own business"
We are talking about the working class here. They do not have the tools to start their own business."

They do, and many have. Others have been "exploited" for a time and spent to money on tools etc. There is no right to have anything given you, you have to work for it, privately or by selling your labour to someone else.

"@Ghost: There is also an economic theory that is like this, it's called mutualism. The only difference is that it has a price system. The way prices would be decided would be the total amount of credits (like the credits I introlduced earlier) given out for the making of whatever the object is. The problem with this is it is impossible to determine, for example, how much an the president of the company contributes to the making of it's products. What do you think?"

I am aware of the system. It's bollocks, bluntly.

@abgemacht: Please explain to me how a person born into a poor family, who could not afford college, who got a low paying job because of it, and is now working class could start a business.

@Zeus: You could get a car over and over again, but why would you want to? And I have said this twice, but I'll say it again. The credits are just proof that you have worked. Nothing more. Would you be happy if I abandoned credits and replaced it with a piece of paper that says you have worked a certain amount of hours? Because that amounts to the same thing. And when did I say anything about government? I envision this system as being governmentless.

@Ghost: Then your company is a legitamite company, and I have no problem with you getting some credits from it. However, you'll need credits from other types of work too.

@Ghost again: What does bollocks mean? I'm guessing something bad, but what exactly. And there is only one problem with mutualism, which I have already pointed out.

@CM

I'm not sure, but here are some examples of people who have:

John D. MacArthur
Oprah
Andrew Carnegie
J.K. Rowling
Christopher Paul Gardner

@ conservative man

My kids have started a business cutting lawns. You can buy a $50 lawnmower and $2 worth of gas, and cut lawns for $20 in good neighborhoods and $5 in lousy ones. Yes, it takes a lot of labor to call on 160 lawns.. make flyers with your names on them... collect from the customers....deal with lawnmower repair...but they have a business that makes THOUSANDS every summer. With encouragement, training, and motivation, this is NOT out of reach for any kid, capital wise. In fact, not out of reach of any adult in our area

BUT.... you have to work at it. year after year....with customers that say "no" summer after summer, but eventually give you a shot...etc etc.

A pet-sitting business...a babysitting business...a painting business..... these are not capital intensive, but can be used to accumulate capital.

@abgemacht: If every working class person could start a business, why haven't they? The ones you have listed were the lucky few.

Yes, the were lucky, but they were also incredibly hard working and extremely intelligent. Not everyone should become successful and wealthy because not everyone is equal. However, there should be a minimum standard that we as a society help everyone achieve. That is not what you're proposing, though.

@abgemacht: How can you say that and then say that capitalism is a good thing? If not everyone can achieve a good life, then how is it a good system?

Ok since you didnt deny that i am able to buy the car over and over again i am going to assume that its ok to do that. You just caled it foolish. But I am able to buy all of the cars i want ,all of the food i want, and all of the anythings i want as long as i work hard.

So in theory i could get a group together with 6 other people. I would work really hard on mondays, paul would work hard on tuesdays, charlie would work hard on wendesdays...Geez if we get seven of us, we even work on weekends. Arent we hard workers.
In this way we all are working hard and have many credits for a particular day. So i can buy a very nice dinner and make the house payment and put gas in the tank on mondays for all seven of us. And paul can do that for tuesdays and charlie for wednesdays....

I think what the backbone of your idea is that hard working pople get better stuff than the lazy people. But it fails when 5 apples is worth more than 1 apple. In your method they are worth the same.

The same reason that salaried workers, middle class workers, don't start businesses.
It means risking what you have.... working long long hours after the salaried staff and hourly staff have gone home.....the potential that your idea or product or service won't win in the marketplace. I don't own a business, because I'm not willing to invest that amount of blood, sweat, tears, and money, and i DO have the resources. It takes a special person to start a business - it's not really about the money..

@CM

Because there is a difference between everyone having a good life and everyone having an equally bad life.

I'm in favor of a minimum wage that allows people a decent standard of living. I'm in favor of affordable education so that people can improve their lives without having wealthy parents. I'm in favor of affordable health care so that people can live long, pain-free lives without going bankrupt.

But, I'm not in favor of treating everyone equally. If someone can only handle working a cash register, that's perfectly fine. They should be able to afford the necessities and have enough to have some fun. Let the people with talent have the sports cars and the mansions and private islands.

@Zeus: You can't do that. The credits don't buy you anything. Over a two week period, you would have to have 120 credits, or more detailed, 10 hours of hard physical labor, 20 hours of easier physical labor, 20 hours of non-physical labor, and 10 hours of non-laboring work.

@abgemacht: "Let the people with talent have the sports cars and the mansions and private islands."
That statement makes me sick. Why should only the talented get to live a good life? It's not an untalented person's fault they're untalented.

"@Ghost again: What does bollocks mean?"

ROFLMAO, really, I split my sides on that one...

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.... http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bollocks

Did you read what I said? Everyone should have a good life. To me, sports cars, mansions, and private islands are not required for a good life. I certainly don't have any of those and I'm happy.

I'll admit that there are currently problems that prevent people from moving up in the world. I think that can be fixed by making education more available and making some changes to the capitalist system. At the end of the day, though, if you honestly can't do anything meaningful, even if you've had the opportunities mentioned, then no, I don't care if they don't have fancy toys.

@abge "I'm in favor of a minimum wage that allows people a decent standard of living."

It really doesn't (search "Friedman minimum wage" on youtube)

@Abge: I never siad those were nessesary for a good life. But everyone should have the ability to at least not be poor, but capitalism makes people poor.

So what happens if i dont make my 120 credits every two weeks? Am i kicked out of the counrtry? From the non-government police force?

And whats wrong for more talented people getting better stuff? Are the people running the register helping society just as much as the present day einstein? Is the person digging holes worth more to society and thus live an luxious life than the person inventing the technology of tommorow?

@Ghost,

I wasn't really convinced by the video I watched. Although, it was an interesting perspective. First off, teenagers are probably the second least important labor group and it seemed like most of his concerns were focused on them. Second, it does nobody any good if they get a job that can't support a basic lifestyle. I would need to see some sort of research that showed that more people were unemployed because of minimum wage than were starving because their jobs offered less than minimum wage.

@CM

As I said, I think there are adjustments you can make in a capitalist society so that most people aren't poor.

@Zeus: Businesses won't let you buy their stuff. This is because not serving you won't cost them any money, as there is none, and they will know that working the specified time benefits society.
And I believe everyone is equally important to society in their own way.