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Babak (26982 D(B))
17 Sep 09 UTC
Glenn Beck is a Mormon nutjob - discuss!!
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/09/16/beck_skousen/print.html

read this first... Where Beck gets his ideas --- its a serious read.
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rlumley (0 DX)
18 Sep 09 UTC
"1. Why? No man is an island.contribute to society.
2. You still haven't explained what is "evil" about it."

1. The hell he isn't. Why should I contribute to society?
2. I have. You just have the wrong definition of evil.

"You depend on yourself and no one else? So when you drive to work, you drive there on a road which you laid yourself, driving a car which you designed and constructed yourself with your own hands using tools which you had also somehow managed to manufacture after you yourself mined and smelted the metal ores needed? No. Other people made your car and laid the road. Other people who are part of the same society you are also a part of."

I paid for that car. It's mine. And while I obviously didn't pay for the roads, I'm not arguing practically, I'm arguing philosophically. Ideally, roads would be privatized, but I'm pretty OK with the government doing infrastructure - especially since they don't screw it nearly as bad as they do most things. (How do you screw up a giant block of cement?)

"Then you are an idiot. And a spiteful idiot at that, if you would deliberately force yourself to lead a pitiful life just so that you could retain a sense of self-righteous smugness about it all."

Damn straight skippy... I'm incredibly spiteful. Although I don't see how what I said is any different from what Draugnar said, and you're not jumping on him. (" I would not contribute to a society where everyone has everything equally. A society without reward based on contribution is of no interest to me.")
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
18 Sep 09 UTC
@ Draugnar: Also, to be clear, only part of your paragraph was quoted from Wikipedia.

The bit that says:

"Communism is a family of economic and political ideas and social movements related to the establishment of an egalitarian, classless and stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general."

...is from Wikipedia. The rest of that paragraph, beginning "As such, there is no....." is your own.
rlumley (0 DX)
18 Sep 09 UTC
@ Sicarius... Lulz. Keep trolling kid...
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
18 Sep 09 UTC
@ rlumley:

"I don't see how what I said is any different from what Draugnar said, and you're not jumping on him."

I don't think Draugnar would agree with that. His view is much more moderate than yours.
Centurian (3257 D)
18 Sep 09 UTC
Rlumley, how are you making the communist seem reasonable?
StevenC. (1047 D(B))
18 Sep 09 UTC
Although Glenn Beck's views might be a little screwed he is just being patriotic about America. Why can't you be patriotic?

On the topic of communism, how do you expect a system like that to work when everyone has to be socially responsible? As you clearly know this Jamiet, most people are not socially responsible, whether it be in a capitalist or communist society(if social responsibility really exists). How do you expect people to be happy when luxuries are evenly distributed and when people know that they will never get anywhere in life and that nothing they contribute is appropriately appreciated?
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
18 Sep 09 UTC
@ rlumely: "I paid for that car, it's mine"

Yes, you bought it, but you still had to depend on someone else to build the car for you. So to claim you never rely on anyone else is absurd. Also, what if you were run over tomorrow? You would need to rely on someone else to drive the ambulance which came to take you to hospital, and you would need to rely on a doctor to treat your injuries.

You are part of society whether you like it or not.
rlumley (0 DX)
18 Sep 09 UTC
I quoted him exactly.

@ Centurian: I do what I can. :-) Maybe I'm secretly a communist wanting to make them look good. And I'm not really making very good arguments, I'm just posting quick responses, I have to go to class soon, and really don't have time to make (or read) long, detailed posts.
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
18 Sep 09 UTC
@ Steven C:

"Although Glenn Beck's views might be a little screwed he is just being patriotic about America. Why can't you be patriotic? "

1. I am not American, therefore for me to be patriotic about America would seem a little odd.
2. Glenn Beck is a phony. Those tears you see him crying on TV are not real. It's acting. And he's not even a very good actor.
rlumley (0 DX)
18 Sep 09 UTC
You can produce things to purchase things from others that you don't make... That's still not relying on them.

Perhaps I should have said, "rely on their charity" which would have been more precise, but I thought that was pretty evident...
rlumley (0 DX)
18 Sep 09 UTC
"1. I am not American, therefore for me to be patriotic about America would seem a little odd.
2. Glenn Beck is a phony. Those tears you see him crying on TV are not real. It's acting. And he's not even a very good actor."

QFT.
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
18 Sep 09 UTC
@ Steven C:

"How do you expect people to be happy when luxuries are evenly distributed and when people know that they will never get anywhere in life and that nothing they contribute is appropriately appreciated?"

I think it's a very sad, mean little world we live in if the only form of reward is financial reward. Humanity can achieve more than that. (See my earlier comments about fulfilling one's potential.)
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
18 Sep 09 UTC
@ rlumley: "And I'm not really making very good arguments"

For the first time in this thread, I agree with you.
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
18 Sep 09 UTC
By the way does anyone know what "QFT" stands for? (I'm genuinely not sure what rlumley means here)
rlumley (0 DX)
18 Sep 09 UTC
Sorry. I forgot to add this to my last post:

I am an American and have stopped considering myself "patriotic". What has America done lately that would make me respect it at all? Collectively, we've decided that it was a good idea to start costly wars in two countries for basically no reason at all, passed budgets a third grader could determine aren't sustainable, and, generally speaking, been colossal ass-hats. What do I have to be proud of in my country?
rlumley (0 DX)
18 Sep 09 UTC
QFT = Quoted for Truth.
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
18 Sep 09 UTC
Eh? I still don't know what QFT means now you've said what the letters represent. Do you mean that you agree with my statement about Glenn Beck's pantomime tears?
rlumley (0 DX)
18 Sep 09 UTC
OK. Well I have class.

It's been fun guys. I may check in later.

Sic: Keep trolling, it's always good for a laugh. :-)
rlumley (0 DX)
18 Sep 09 UTC
Yes, I do, Jamiet. It's the same thing as +1. See also, my 4th to last post (Counting this one)

Anyone get the idea I should slow down a bit?
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
18 Sep 09 UTC
@ rlumley: "we've decided that it was a good idea to start costly wars in two countries for basically no reason at all"

Wow, a second thing you've said I can agree on. The war in Iraq was entirely unjustified, and we don't seem to be doing much good in Afghanistan either. We're getting away from communism here (although as this was originally a thread about Glenn Beck I can't really complain about that) but I do totally agree with you about the war.
Draugnar (0 DX)
18 Sep 09 UTC
I have to run out right now (doctor appointment) but will post more detail later. But in brief, society has a responsibility (that's societal responsibility rlumley) to it's citizens needs. But beyond the needs, there should NOT be an equal distribution of wealth as progress will stagnate and apathy willt ake hold. There are a few people who do their work purely for the love of it and are happy as long as their needs are met, but mankinds nature is to get ahead and not just keep up with the Joneses, but exceed the Jonses. As such pure communism where no one owns anything and everyone has equivalent luxuries, not based on merit, is neither feasible or sustainable nor desirable. Socially responsible capitalism is, however, feaible if we change the attitudes of society by convincing people and corporations that greed isn't always good and that eliminating poverty and seeing to everyone's needs removes the continual drain from society in the long run. It is sustainable once the needs are met as we will see a gradual reduction in the drain. And it is desirable in that it will reward those who do while making certain those who can't have their misery alleved.
StevenC. (1047 D(B))
18 Sep 09 UTC
You guys are missing my point about Glenn Beck. I'm saying he has the right to be patriotic, although I think rlumley is right about America in it's current position. And I don't care if Beck's tears are acted out. He is trying to make a point about his views and he should have the right to make those points, even if you don't agree with him.

And Jamiet, of course it's a sad, mean, little world but what can you do about it? Surely communism is not going to solve that problem as a better subsitute than capitalism, right? It is human nature to get ahead of others and to be selfish about getting ahead and gaining wealth. I do agree, however, that the problem can be stemmed if limits are placed on capitalism.
Sicarius (673 D)
18 Sep 09 UTC
I would be trolling if I brought up ayn rand as some sort of intelligent person with rational ideas. To call rands objectivism pop philosophy for twelve year olds is merely common sense.

rlumley, bartering with someone for goods you need is not relying on them in any way?
Sicarius (673 D)
18 Sep 09 UTC
Why is patriotism a good thing?

this is an honest question.
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
18 Sep 09 UTC
@ Draugnar: (This is my last post for an hour or so, too)

"there should NOT be an equal distribution of wealth as progress will stagnate and apathy willt ake hold. There are a few people who do their work purely for the love of it and are happy as long as their needs are met, but mankinds nature is to get ahead and not just keep up with the Joneses, but exceed the Jonses."

I do not accept this. It is my view that, in fact, far from it being "makind's nature" be be greedy and acquisitive, the fact that many people behave in this way is actually a product of our current system.

We have created a capitalist system in which greed and selfishness is rewarded. Therefore, individuals behave in a greedy and selfish way, not because of some intrinsic "human nature" but because society rewards such behaviour. If society stopped rewarding greedy and selfish behaviour, people would have no incentive to behave selfishly.
rlumley (0 DX)
18 Sep 09 UTC
@ Draugnar:

You might be able to convince me, if it weren't for the fact that the government (An entity I have absolutely no faith in, if you haven't gotten that already) has consistently made bad decision after bad decision, and they are the ones that would have to determine "need". Do you really want your fate in the hands of the majority? (Look around you... I don't.) I'm not saying dictatorship is a good way, but unchecked democracy is probably worse.

@ Jamie: I knew you'd finally see reason. :-P

If anyone's wondering, I'm posting because class hasn't started yet. :-P
Draugnar (0 DX)
18 Sep 09 UTC
Steven C +1

Re: Beck - I may not agree with him, but I, too, defend his right to say what he likes, crocodile tears and all. Although I doubt he completely agrees with everything he says anymore than Imus or Stern or even Limbaugh (altough he is whacked enough he may just think he is one rung shy of being God).

Thank you StevenC for reinforcing what I've been saying about communism being unacheivable and unsustainable because of human nature being what it is.
StevenC. (1047 D(B))
18 Sep 09 UTC
Sicarius,

I didn't say it was a good thing. People do stupid things because of patriotism. There is a loooong history about it.
Sicarius (673 D)
18 Sep 09 UTC
Every anarchist on the internet has surely already laughed themselves dizzy at the youtube video of right-wing, bananaphone, Mormon, libertarian, F*x News talking head Glenn Beck vituperating against The Coming Insurrection in a book review [does it count as a book review if the reviewer goes on to admit they haven’t actually read the book in question?]. You can’t write comedy that good. However, I will dwell on neither the book nor the infamous video. What inspired this piece was Beck’s repetition of a popularly held and widely accepted notion, namely that ‘violence’ will ‘delegitimize your cause.’ Picture: State and corporate violence(Clockwise) Mass graves of Indigenous Americans at the Battle of Wounded Knee; Environmental destruction caused by tar sands surface mining in Alberta, Canada; The atomic bomb.

I use ‘violence’ in scare quotes because such a wide range of tactics are considered violent by the dominant culture, whether it’s breaking windows, setting fires, blocking intersections, or even dragging newspaper boxes into the street, irrespective of the fact that none of these things involve hurting people. More unnervingly, many ‘radicals,’ whether overtly or unconsciously, buy into this framework. How many times have you read accounts of street actions where the writers repeatedly refer to ‘peaceful protesters,’ ‘non-violent demonstrators,’ or hope to inspire outrage against incidences of police repression against ‘non-violent activists’? The presupposition here is that it would be totally OK for the police to smash the faces and ribs of people smashing windows. That, as soon as someone oversteps the bounds of law, in place to protect property and preserve privilege, they are making an ‘illegitimate protest’ and their concerns aren’t to be taken seriously and we aren’t to be concerned when they get a judicial smackdown. In case anyone is confused, I am not arguing that people fighting for social change should only use ‘violent’ tactics, but simply that we should not condemn any tactic that is effective. If a petition to the school board will get student activists reinstated after suspension or expulsion, fantastic. If occupying your factory will get you your severance pay and benefits, wonderful. In France, workers have learned that kidnapping their bosses and threatening to blow up their factories will end managerial inaction and get their demands met.

In the Niger Delta, finding that pleas to oil companies to respect human life and dignity go unanswered, the Movement to Emancipate the Niger Delta takes takes direct action and stages kidnappings and blows up oil pipelines. In Somalia, people were sick of multinational corporations dumping toxic waste on their shores, so an unofficial coast guard was set up to counter this-- you may have heard them called ‘pirates.’

Of the examples above, most of which would probably be considered ‘violent,’ the ‘violence’ of the resisters pales in comparison to what they were resisting. Though systemic, coordinated attacks on the health, life and dignity of humans and ecosystems for profit is the ultimate violence, these are seen as acceptable when they come with state or corporate sponsorship. Nevertheless, to allow these attacks to continue unchallenged is to be complicit in them. Those in positions of social and economic power do not generally feel compelled to modify their violent activity against the oppressed classes and there is a reason that the state elevates as shining examples figures like Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Despite his anti-capitalism and questioning of dogmatic non-violence in his later years, as well as his identification of the U.S. as “the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today,” King has effectively been de-radicalized and sanitized to please the dominant culture, which is a white culture, and his legacy has been redefined to keep the privileged comfortable in their belief that the oppressed won’t actually do anything to threaten privilege.

Because there is such real systemic violence present in the daily lives of poor people, women, people of color, queer and gender non-conforming people, children, differently abled people, immigrants, and people at intersections of the above categories, it is incredibly insulting and problematic to tell us that we ought not defend ourselves so that we may maintain some sort of ‘moral high ground.’ Some of us face life and death on a daily basis just for existing as we do. How can it be the ‘moral high ground’ to keep from fighting back, individually or collectively, against the structures that keep us subjugated within violent systems of domination?

Glenn Beck and most of the country think that ‘the extreme left on this planet are actively calling for violence,’ which will ‘delegitimize [the] cause.’ A quick glance at wars, prisons, workplaces, extraction sites, and dumping zones, to name a few, would render the cause of the state and capitalism the most illegitimate imaginable.
rlumley (0 DX)
18 Sep 09 UTC
@Sic: Make an argument, and I'll argue with you.

Although I agree that patriotism is probably one of the most dangerous things in a democracy.

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229 replies
hellalt (70 D)
29 Sep 09 UTC
live game crashed. pls help
gameID=13802
Are there any mods online?
2 replies
Open
denis (864 D)
26 Sep 09 UTC
If you don't eat your meat you can't have any pudding
WTA
14 D
48 hour phases
join up
26 replies
Open
Le_Roi (913 D)
29 Sep 09 UTC
ǝɯɐƃ pǝddıןɟ
C'mon everybody!
32 point buy in PPSC Gunboat!
0 replies
Open
airborne (154 D)
28 Sep 09 UTC
Pre-League Game?
Anyone in the League wants to play a rust breaker game before it starts? I'm open to suggestion as how the game should be setup. I need to moditify my country randomizer :P
3 replies
Open
Akroma (967 D)
25 Sep 09 UTC
big poopy syndrom
in here, discuss the effective of a high rating on how your enemies approach you
29 replies
Open
hellalt (70 D)
28 Sep 09 UTC
Live Game Now
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=13802
25 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
28 Sep 09 UTC
Mod--Please unstuck this game
gameID=13265

When we all paused a week ago, the game got stuck. We've now all agreed to unpause but can't get the game going again.
11 replies
Open
Tantris (2456 D)
28 Sep 09 UTC
Drawn vs Survived
If you are in a near second place in a points-per-supply-center game, it seems like it is better to lose instead of draw. I guess the only reason to change this, would be the record (draws look better than survived in your profile) and Ghost Ratings?
15 replies
Open
BigZombieDude (1188 D)
27 Sep 09 UTC
In Game Messages
Not a big problem, but my game messages dont seem to increase. I have been stuck on my current amount for quite some time now....
13 replies
Open
tilMletokill (100 D)
28 Sep 09 UTC
after school LIVE GAME
Who is with me?
1 reply
Open
redcrane (1045 D)
28 Sep 09 UTC
Live game anyone?
how about today (monday)? let's get a game going.
4 replies
Open
LittleSpeck (100 D)
27 Sep 09 UTC
leaving a game
how do you leave a game?
11 replies
Open
Zman (207 D)
26 Sep 09 UTC
Axis & Allies
Anyone know whether it can be played on line?
14 replies
Open
SirLoseALot (441 D)
27 Sep 09 UTC
Metagaming on 13177?
WebDiplomacy Admin, please check 13177 and any related games for Metagaming. Why would an ally (Maniac) change sides mid game when we have a commanding lead in a % game? Just checking.
38 replies
Open
Crashed game
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=13710

I wanna hurry up and die lol
0 replies
Open
Speaker (100 D)
28 Sep 09 UTC
Bugs?
I'm experiencing trouble with all my games saying that all my phases are "Now" when they still have time left on them. Is this where I report such bugs?
1 reply
Open
gmvera07 (97 D)
28 Sep 09 UTC
More crashes
Live games are crashing way too often. Is there any way to stop this are should we just abandon live games altogether. I'd really rather not as I love live games...
1 reply
Open
Chopstix (100 D)
28 Sep 09 UTC
new 2 site
need pointerssz
5 replies
Open
iMurk789 (100 D)
25 Sep 09 UTC
webdiplomacy banned at school :(
i just about cried when it happened. now my 2nd hour is extremely boring.
33 replies
Open
tilMletokill (100 D)
28 Sep 09 UTC
Cant send email too MODS
So here it goes.........
Check inside for the dets
16 replies
Open
Jacob (2466 D)
28 Sep 09 UTC
end of phase weirdness/bug?
I was sitting watching the phase ticked down and when it got to about 4 minutes left it suddenly rolled over to the next phase. Anyone else noticed this?
5 replies
Open
mugence (417 D)
26 Sep 09 UTC
To all those who have played with me before...
New game I created for those of you who have played with me before. I invite you to come join me again in this debauchery.
8 replies
Open
kleinemark (100 D)
21 Sep 09 UTC
I don't want to play with these [expletive of choice]s; how...
... do I quit a game?
7 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
27 Sep 09 UTC
An Octopus' Garden? No- My New Aquarium!
I LOVE fish, I'm an avid aquarist, and I just got a 20-30 gal. tank that's double the size of my old one! :D

To boot, I have four new Tetra fish- and they stick together so well that I want to name them after a famous Foursome, or give them four matching names- ideas, folks?
66 replies
Open
denis (864 D)
27 Sep 09 UTC
Hey teacher leave us kids alone!!!
So yet another Pink Floyd themed WTA
5 D
48 hour phases
join up
2 replies
Open
WeekEnd_Warrior (100 D)
27 Sep 09 UTC
Live game 30 points 15 min phase
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=13772
Come on in.
5 replies
Open
Carpysmind (1423 D)
27 Sep 09 UTC
Breaking Support
Now I want to make sure I have this right, if there are units in Kei, Ruh, and Bur and there are three opposing units in Ber, Mun, and Tyr; If Ber attacks Kei and Mun attacks Bur and Tyr move to Mun regardless of what "support moves" are ordered for Kei, Ruh, and Bur ALL units will remain in their original position, correct?
5 replies
Open
gmvera07 (97 D)
27 Sep 09 UTC
New live game
gameID=13767
15 min phases!
Oh baby!
3 replies
Open
Babak (26982 D(B))
27 Sep 09 UTC
New Game (Ancient Med): "Third in the Med (English)"
http://game.xbsd.kr/endip/board.php?gameID=505

20pts - WTA - Ancient Med Map - password = 'med'
5 replies
Open
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