I'm afraid I won't unless you spike my interest first. What about it?

I must disagree with your inflation-thing as well. Those who have nothing lose nothing through inflation. It's only bad for those who have *something*, although perhaps not enough.

JamesYanik, your welcome, we take care of you and it will be ok. Because, well, we are not selfish, greedy or evil morons, at lest not when it comes to people with real needs.

I don't recall JamesYanik in this discussion..

Apart from swimming to Sweden.. I'm missing something.

He said he wanted to swim to sweden if old and sick, or maybe that was in an ither thread, or in my head, or in a game where he wanted a convoy to sweden.

Steephie, inflation still raises the price of bread. Inflation doesn't raise their wages. OK so here's something to pique your interest but I'm too tired to go into economics right now. Originally, the book, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz was an extended metaphor based on the monetary and politcal goings on of the time. There were proponents of gold-based currencies, silver-based currencies, and central bank note debt-based currencies all debating at this point in history, around the turn of the century. Dorothy's ruby slippers were silver in the book to repersent the liquidity that silver could bring into the market and essentially 'save the day.' The metaphor is a lot more indepth and beautoful than this but check this out:

There is an important documentary on youtube that y'all should check out:

The Secret of Oz (youtube payperview verson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkq2E8mswI -- youtube free version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjGyjUfDoN4 )

, which explains fractional reserve lending, the roles of the central banks throughout history and the metaphor sewn into the Wizard of Oz. Entertaining but extremely informative.

Also check out: G. Edward Griffin's book: the Creature from Jekyll Island.

@Psilosha:
"It doesn't matter (here*) what the taxed funds are used for = that's a different story."

Yeah, no, fuck that. It matters *greatly* what taxed funds are used for, in very concrete terms like "number of dead bodies". Taxes matter too, but they are not some ultimate, essential evil.

"It is only justifiable to tax people to pay for services individuals cannot provide themselves: national defense, court systems, interpretation and execution of laws (which are restricted to preventing violence among citizens)."

That's an assertion, to be sure. Let me know when you make a reasoned argument of it. (And apparently now it matters what taxed funds are used for! Thanks for being consistent.)

"Disappointing: weak sauce from a post that began so well and from someone with a name that evokes logic."

All you're saying here is that you're not secure enough in your own opinions to present them without accompanying insult.

"Force is what the government operates on. Force and only force, Leth. Misuse of force, therefore, is what we're talking about.
AND THAT IS THE GREATEST THREAT TO MANKIND: MISUSED VIOLENCE, MISUSED FORCE."

Repeating the same error does not make it correct. Leaving aside that whether your claims about "misuse" are correct, just because the *sum total* of misused force is the greatest threat to mankind does not mean every individual case of (claimed) misuse is invested with that same weight.

Wow in the context we started in, Leth, what taxes were being appropriated for wasn't the issue currently being debated. Why don't you read what you quoted, I said: "It doesn't matter (here*) what the taxes are used for." Indeed, it didn't matter because I was questioning the premise of taxation to begin with, connecting all taxation for any purpose to the threat of force and force is an essential, unequivocal evil. You quoted me making two different points. I also admitted there are gradients of misuse which range all the way up to genocide and all the way down to public libraries. All of it, intrinsically is essentially unethical because to decide what to do with my value is based on forcing me to part with it.

SO, sir, to address your 'fuck that,' request, of course it matters, you moron. If you read carefully, though, you'll see I've already addressed all of this and I now have no more patience for you. PM me so we don't bog down this wonderful thread with catching you up.

It's not insulting to point out that the paragraph you addressed to me said nothing and had absolutely no teeth. Calling you a moron, however, was an insult.

At least you're not a big wussie.

I was plenty consistent in each of my separate arguments. I know there's a lot going on here so we need to be careful not to make asses of ourselves.

The discussion started with healthcare, and *your* line of discussion started with the "misuse of government" as well as "use of force" and "violence". What government does with taxed money is clearly relevant to all of the above, especially when you go on to call out things like 'crony capitalism' that are not solely matters of taxation. Your subsequent reduction to taxation does not make anyone else a moron.

By the way:

"force is an essential, unequivocal evil."

This has not actually been established. I know the non-aggression principle is fashionable and all, but we don't actually live in the world where your only justifiable obligation is to your private property rights.

But you're not commenting in a manner suggesting willingness to have a good-faith discussion with me, and I do have to sleep some time, so--have a good evening.

What happens to taxes can justify taxes. In your case, I believe you think taxation for national defense and such would be a justified reason to tax.

That's to Psilosha.

I also disagree that Psilosha is unwilling to have a good-faith discussion.

It seems like I can summarise most of my contributions to this thread by saying "I disagree" :-)

Forceful infringement on natural rights is what's evil; I suppose we need to force deer and fish to hand their lives over for our food and sport -- the argument about where natural rights extends is a different one. As a vegetarian for instance, I don't happen to agree with forcing subjugation of other species. I respect a being's right to life therefore I can assuredly say that force and violence upon another being, to me, is evil. Dunno bout you.

Also crony capitalism applies directly to this discussion because we are robbed of money so that government can give it to big corporations. What's so hard to get here?

I PMd you a nice long message, like a progressive rock song. Enjoy.

Goodnight, Leth. My PM is much more tempered, haha. Sorry you felt it wasn't in good faith. You dropped the 'f' bomb first, though. I cant help it if you provoked a troll ;)

Love you all sorry daddy yelled earlier. ;D

To clarify it's not just taxation, it's government action in general. Taxation is one of the better veiled forms of government force. An amphibious landing in Normandy is a little bit more obvious of a use of force.

All I'm saying is that the misuse of government in general, and by government meaning force and control, is the greatest threat to humanity:

Violence.

why would you want to get rid of Obamacare?

I love a good piece of sirloin steak, coated with cracked black pepper, flash fried, with the juices and blood made into a sauce with a little cream (don't forget to scrape any burnt bits off the pan), served on a warm plate with chips or frites and a glass of decent red wine, say, a Haut Medoc, perhaps a Chateau Lousteauneuf, cru bourgeois! Gods I'm sooo hungry. My point is that that's a choice. But I also believe in a state that provides as support system that allows my fellow English to receive food, lodging, education and healthcare. I do not begrudge the whacking great taxes I've paid throughout my life because of this. Mind you, Trident is just a waste of space.

I dont care about getting "rid" of Obamacare. I just want to know what congressman or senator is making a bigger salary with the fines I've been levied the past 2 years.

Money goes in and money goes out. Which money goes where is irrelevant and there's usually not one right answer.

Except that's not. Those fines go to support healthcare for people who otherwise can't afford it.

But hey, the US pays outrageous amounts for a completely craptastic inferior health care "system" compared to the rest of the world, but Americans are just stupid enough to feel happy about paying hugely inflated sums for an inferior product.

i'll tell you the insurance company CEOs and the corporate lawyers who fight to keep people who have coverage from getting medical care get paid many many times what members of congress do.

Funny how little Psilosha cares about the violence done by corporations and other greedy people on regular people. I suppose he'd like to get rid of the police too to clear the decks for gangsters and thieves, since obviously state "violence" is the only kind worth worrying about.

Remember I said a lot about violence in general being the evil here. Also I talked quite a bit about greed within the law vs. greed above the law. Remember about how I said the only justifiable function of government is to perform functions we cannot perform ourselves -- protection, contract enforcement, theft/fraud investigation and punishment. Keep up Ogion! and respond to my private message you big wussie!

-Lil Psilo

None of you read except what's addressed to you or what was most recently posted. Knock that off and be thorough.

libertarians...anarchists...(sigh). As a white english speaking male with college degrees, a US passport, no history of major family crisis, a social position inherited on the backs of generations of slavery and discrimination and native american genocide, I have no right to complain about paying a little extra for health care or fines or whatever in order to support people in worse positions then me. There are 7 billion of us -- either we reduce our population significantly, or come up with some kind of collective, humanistic mentality or eventually all the resources in the world will be consumed by a handful of lucky people. We should consume less and help each other out whenever possible.

There's a sad irony in the USA, the wealthiest nation in the world, not having decent public health care for it's citizens, regardless of their own wealth, and the state of your public education system has also declined.
It seems to an outsider like me that your health system is there to make huge profits for the private insurance industry, rather than provide reasonable health care for all and excellent health services to the wealthy

There is a weird thing is, levels of violence are drastically reduced.

The US is great for not having the government use violence against citizens - as a result propoganda is use to control people instead; other countries would have you shot or thrown in prison for decades... But violence is no longer acceptable from the state. You can write whatever criticism of Obama that you like, and you're fine.

I'm not sure what the limits of free speech are (if you planned to bomb a public space you'd be at risk of a drone strike against you...) but you can go so far as the westboro baptist church. Now the propganda is the current war for freedom - which Fox news and other private corporations are experts in.

And for all the complaints you have about this propganda, the lack of violence from the state is actually worth protecting (*cough* #blacklivesmatter *cough*) or aspiring to if your state does not have it.