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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
NFL Week 5: Pick 'em--Wherein, Hey, There Are Actually a Lot of Good/Interesting Games!
So we kick off the week tonight with a game which looked like crap at the beginning of the year and now...looks slightly less like crap with the Bills and Browns going at it. Seattle meets Indy, the Niners and Texans square off on Sunday Night, the Raiders and Chargers play a LATER Sunday Night game no one outside California will watch, Pats/Bengals, Lions/Packers, and so on...so, once again, we ask you to...PICK 'EM!
56 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
02 Oct 13 UTC
(+4)
Federal Education Spending
We'll starting cutting the budget here...No more Dept of "Education"

http://www.cato.org/blog/should-americas-ceos-listen-ed-sec-arne-duncan?utm_content=buffer44265&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer
339 replies
Open
Hamilton Brian (811 D(B))
07 Oct 13 UTC
Openings for a learning game
I enjoyed both the School of War and Dojo of War experiences this summer. Doing both at the same time was idiocy on my part, and I still owe an EoG for Dojo. However, the amount of learning was good, and humbling. I am proposing another learning game.
3 replies
Open
steephie22 (182 D(S))
05 Oct 13 UTC
Best way to make more money out of money?
So there's a bunch of money I'm not planning to spend for at least 2 years. Can I best keep it on a bank account as usual or are there more lucrative options that have about the same risk level as a bank account (practically none, since in this case the government returns the money if the bank goes boom)?
97 replies
Open
Yonni (136 D(S))
07 Oct 13 UTC
Advice on building a media server
Figure there must be some expertise on this forum...
4 replies
Open
tendmote (100 D(B))
06 Oct 13 UTC
When is it OK to start watching basketball again?
I stopped watching basketball altogether after the LeBron James "Decision" and strike-shortened season turned the NBA into a soap opera telenovela. Is the nonsense over yet? Are people playing basketball again? Like they mean business? Is there a new Bill Laimbeer out there fouling out and taking a bow before a booing crowd?
17 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
07 Oct 13 UTC
Interesting Poll
What would happen if during an election between two candidates for a political office a poll was held, where instead of preference for either candidate, people could "mix" the candidates, assigning percentages to each..? That should yield interesting and data on your electorate distribution..
1 reply
Open
semck83 (229 D(B))
07 Oct 13 UTC
(+3)
Interview with Antonin Scalia
I thought this was a very interesting interview. I'm sure many here hate the man, but irrespective of that, he's always interesting. So I thought I'd post this for y'all.

http://nymag.com/news/features/antonin-scalia-2013-10/
0 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
07 Oct 13 UTC
Why is John Kerry a twat?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24424933
"I think it's a credit to the Assad regime, frankly. It's a good beginning and we welcome a good beginning."
2 replies
Open
MadMarx (36299 D(G))
29 Sep 13 UTC
Anonymous/Blind GR Challenge Tournament
If you post in this thread, you will be automatically disqualified from participating, you must PM me your interest. More info within.
54 replies
Open
The Fox (115 D)
06 Oct 13 UTC
1day 50pts WTA
I was looking for a fair paced standard diplomacy game to enter, but there were none, so here it is. Come one come all
gameID=127129
0 replies
Open
blankflag (0 DX)
02 Oct 13 UTC
(+1)
reputation
i think you can get along fine until you pass a certain threshold of douchebaggery, then you get a reputation, and a flood of stories get brought up in everyday gossip and your cause is lost.

so does anybody have strategies for maximizing douchebaggery without losing reputation? i think the only hope is to conform. if you are a nonconformist, then any small thing will seem big because people will constantly hear of it because you are often talked about.
20 replies
Open
redhouse1938 (429 D)
21 Sep 13 UTC
Mercilessness
for those responsible

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/21/world/africa/kenya-mall-gunbattle/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
65 replies
Open
Putin33 (111 D)
06 Oct 13 UTC
European migration policy is a disgrace
http://www.dw.de/search-postponed-for-migrant-shipwreck-victims-in-lampedusa/a-17135414
14 replies
Open
Crazy Anglican (1067 D)
06 Oct 13 UTC
(+2)
My first triathlon tomorrow
I'm 46. What am I thinking?
11 replies
Open
zultar (4180 DMod(P))
06 Oct 13 UTC
(+1)
String theory, God particle, A Capella, Agent Based Modeling and YOU
My wife, who's learning agent based modeling --> which makes my brain hurts<--, found these videos that just made my day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rjbtsX7twc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtItBX1l1VY
3 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
05 Oct 13 UTC
Gov Shutdown? 83% Disagree...
http://washingtonexaminer.com/wheres-sense-of-crisis-in-a-17-percent-government-shutdown/article/2536862

That's right, 83% of Federal Spending is still flowing. Time to take the 17% that is "non-essential" and give it to the states where it belongs, or let private industry perform the same functions.
39 replies
Open
LakersFan (899 D)
06 Oct 13 UTC
17/17 tournament thread
What happened to it? Did I mistakenly mute it or something?
1 reply
Open
2ndWhiteLine (2596 D(B))
12 Sep 13 UTC
(+3)
Daily Big Lebowski Reading
For those of us who may not get as much from the Bible, but still like reading something every day.
75 replies
Open
steephie22 (182 D(S))
04 Oct 13 UTC
Animal Day dilemma
This day makes me wonder: what's better for the animals? Buy biological meat instead of standard meat or donate the money you would otherwise pay extra to an organisation supporting animals? Discuss.
40 replies
Open
philcore (317 D(S))
05 Oct 13 UTC
where are the stars?
The threads that I've posted on no longer have stars next to them. Did I miss a discussion about this? Did I even comment on said discussion and just can't find it because the star is gone?
6 replies
Open
SantaClausowitz (360 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
Place your bets
Who fired the shots at the capital?
48 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
05 Oct 13 UTC
Tell Me This Isn't the Play of the Year
http://nesn.com/2013/10/smus-garrett-gilbert-completes-unbelievable-two-point-conversion-to-force-overtime-video/
0 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
04 Oct 13 UTC
Stop paying the politicians
Politicians keep paid to do a job. If they stop doing that job why not stop paying them ........ there won't so many tea parties then if they have no money.
35 replies
Open
SantaClausowitz (360 D)
01 Oct 13 UTC
(+2)
Who else isn't allowed to work tomorrow?
… or get paid?
91 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
28 Sep 13 UTC
(+2)
10 Years Ago...
Give 1 pop culture thing you liked 10 years ago you now like less/dislike, and then 1 pop culture thing you disliked/liked less 10 years ago that you now like.
Give 1 religious/political thought/stance you agreed with 10 years ago that you now disagree with, and 1 religious/political thought/stance you disagreed with that you now agree with.
And to cap it off--1 book that's risen in your estimation over the last 10 years, and 1 that's fallen.
13 replies
Open
fulhamish (4134 D)
04 Oct 13 UTC
Isolationism
I don't know all that much about American history (self evident some might say), but I found this piece in the New York Review of Books challanged some of my preconceptions. The piece is a review of a recently published book on the New Deal. I found this section on isolationism as a function of US sectionalism particularly thought provoking -
5 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
02 Oct 13 UTC
(+3)
LET'S GO PITTSBURGH PIRATES!
We have far more important things to worry about--I'll just leave the government shutdown talk for you all...you can probably guess who I back anyway--but for now, let's take a minute and unite in rooting the Pittsburgh Pirates on tonight! After *21 YEARS* of futility, they've FINALLY made it back to the postseason for this Wild Card Playoff against the Reds! The Mets were out of this before the season began...so let's all root for the Buccos (and their long-suffering fans!)
147 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
03 Oct 13 UTC
Kill Your Neighbor for Bitcoins
THIS IS AWESOME.

http://news.yahoo.com/silk-road-website-dealt-drugs-guns-assassins-bitcoins-190640637--abc-news-topstories.html
12 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
02 Oct 13 UTC
(+2)
RIP Tom Clancy
Legendary.
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Putin33 (111 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
You ask me all these stupid questions and you can't justify one opinion. This whole thread is just one big argumentum ad popularum, which is your favorite form of (non) argument.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
Really, Putin?

"Those who can't write, write fiction."

Really? Since it'd take all day to defend the entirety of fiction (well, actually, it'd take two seconds as I think we're all pretty united here in thinking your position's ludicrous) let's just take your specific examples:

"The Trial has absolutely no plot. The LOTR was basically an extraordinarily overwrought Beowulf. These are insufferable books to read. I can't even make it through the first 100 pages of the Fellowship of the Ring without falling asleep."

First of all--who said a work of literature has to have a plot to be great?

Plenty of poetry--no plot in such classics as "The Lamb/The Tyger," "She Walks in Beauty," "Because I Could Not Stop For Death," "The Road Not Taken," and so on...

But they're all hacks, right?

And I'm sorry slow-moving or slight plots bother you, but personal taste is different than "Not my thing, ergo, it's crap."

And the meandering, "plotless" (which I'd argue isn't true either) nature of Kafka's "The Trial" is by design...to allow to the feeling of identifying with K, of being trapped and charged and the sort of existential crisis a Kakfa-esque nightmare of a totalitarian state can impose upon a single person.

But who needs that?

As for LOTR, again--your taste doesn't make it crap. I can't defend that as well as others here, and I'll leave that one to them, but you're idiocy here is really quite stunning, Putin.

"I'd take the writings of mediocre historians or economists over that of the greatest fiction writers. When gibberish like Ulysses & Satanic Verses are considered the 'greatest novels of the century' you know the genre is severely lacking. "

1. Why? Substantiate your position.

2. Ulysses is gibberish, eh? Why? Showing the way in which even a single day in a person's life can be at once mundane and epic, going into the nuances of human experience, using Stream of Consciousness and a variety of stylistic choices to bring the 20th century to life on the page--total garbage. That Joyce, what a hack...

Should've been a mediocre historian instead.

"I haven't read Les Mis. It's a massive book and didn't seem particularly interesting."

1. You'll read Marx's "Das Kapital" but not "Les Mis?" Marx's tome's pretty damn big too...so clearly size isn't the issue...but a story which includes a man's redemption in a corrupt society, the exploration of the cruelty of that society and how it impacts the characters, and, hey! a student uprising against the elite in favor of establishing a more socially and economically-equal government...nah, none of that's stuff you care about!

YOU never talk about redemption or corruption or revolutions against the elite, right?

"I've read a sufficient amount of Dickens though, and, while I get that he's hailed as a great writer, I cannot seriously believe that people find him anything but dull and repetitive. His characters are caricatures, his analysis of major political events is painfully facile, and his writing style is full of cheap sentimentality (common in 19th century novels I think)."

Repetitive? A bit, maybe, yeah. (There's only so many damned orphaned English boys you can care about...and you get accustomed to "Dickensian" plot twists after a while.)

But dull? Never. (Well, almost never.)

Oliver Twist, Great Expectations (my favorite, Invictus, sad you're not a fan), A Tale of Two Cities (that especially seems like it'd be a Putin-friendly book), David Copperfield (my other favorite), Bleak House...no? All crap?

And for being probably the greatest creator of characters after Shakespeare in the English language...no? Nothing?

He's probably overly-optimistic, but not every writer has to be gloom and doom.

And if you think Dickensian characterization is typical of 19th century novels, one name--

Dostoyevsky.

After Shakespeare, THE #1 creator of psychologically-deep characters and socially-complex worlds and situations.

But a middle school textbook on the history of Iowa is more important than "Notes From the Underground" or "The Brothers Karamazov."

Right?

(Actually, for as much as you hate Dickens, you'd make a great socialist Mr. Gradgrind...or Scrooge...ha, a socialist Scrooge...oxymoronic, but still.)

"As for Shakespeare, I enjoy some of his plays as performed (where the history isn't completely butchered),"

A horse, a horse, all of Putin's words, words, words for a horse! (Good trade, the horse is and will be worth more.)

"If I have to pick a playwright, I'd pick George Bernard Shaw. His plays as written are actually fairly entertaining to read"

1. Gee, how am I not surprise,
2. I love Shaw too, but
3. You said fiction PERIOD was all trash...

Heartbreak House and Pygmalion are works of fiction too, you know.

"Paradise Lost is a poor example for your argument. If you're going to pick a 'classic' at least pick something where are the syntax isn't incomprehensible, as if poorly translated from a foreign language."

English is a foreign language for you, Putin?

AHA! NOW your complete butchering of sense, logic and the Anglo-American canon makes perfect sense!

"Isn't Huck Finn a history of a county in rural Missouri?"

About as much as "Richard III" is the completely-totally-100% true history of that part of English history.

In related news, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with slavery, social norms, how we perceive people, pitting one's moral foundations vs. the law of the land, a look at American society on the whole and both the potential and hypocrisy therein...

NOPE! None of that!
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
"You ask me all these stupid questions and you can't justify one opinion."

Yes, but now talk about someone else's argument.
Putin33 (111 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
Where did they come up with 11 dimensions?
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Oct 13 UTC
You went easy on him, Obi. I expected a hell of a lot more out of you, especially when he attacked Shakespeare as literature and only likes the historical when performed, never read. I mean Julius Caesar is great when *read*!
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
"Defend everything that occurs after Tom Sawyer enters the picture."

1. If a piece of music was mostly good but had a bad ending, would that really make it a worthless, "below average" piece? How about a painting with one blemish?

2. While the ending to Huck Finn is definitely the second-biggest point of attack on the novel (after the whole, you know, 200+ times Twain uses the N-word, which is for a valid artistic reason and works effectively, but try telling that to school boards and offended parents) is the ending.

T.S. Eliot, who defended the ending and the book, said:

"It is Huck who gives the book style. The River gives the book its form. But for the River, the book might be only a sequence of adventures with a happy ending. A river, a very big and powerful river, is the only natural force that can wholly determine the course of human peregrination.... Thus the River makes the book a great book... Mark Twain is a native, and the River God is his God."

As such, it's been argued--and I agree--that once the River "ends" (insofar as they leave the River), the real weight and driving force of the story ends. The world is absurd, and Twain mirrors that absurdity in how ridiculous he sets things up with Tom Sawyer (who's treating this as if he were a child overdosed on pulp adventure stories and, hey, that's what he is) and the utter silliness at the end of the novel.

To simply free Jim would come across as too preachy.
To have him captured would be too preachy in another way.
To leave it hanging would leave the reader unsatisfied.

There isn't a good way to end a book like Huck Finn because it's a book based entirely on motion and moving forward, hence the vital importance of the River--

It's the one place Jim and Huck are free from society and its constraints, and as such, it's also the one place where the two--a slave and an outcast--are able to both regard others and be regarded as equals, without judgment, condemnation or any of the absurdities which make up the customs and legality of the world they inhabit.

The River, a source of change and away from society, is a place for sanity.

Once they leave that, Twain portrays society as the converse of an orderly River--a chaotic mess.

What happens when they stop at each land station?
Chaos.
The Grangerfords?
It's a family feud, a silly one over nothing, and someone Huck knows dies. Chaos.
When they meet the Duke and the King?
Con jobs followed by a tarring and feathering. More chaos.
So what happens when they leave the River behind for good and meet Tom Sawyer?

Chaos, but in a silly sense, since Tom is a silly boy...as most boys his age are.

So the ending doesn't have the flow of the previous parts, but that's because the River is part of what provides that flow, and Twain is satirizing just how absurd life in society--which, remember, Huck hates and sees as the antithesis to life in nature or on the frontier, which is a VERY American idea and one of the reasons Huck is one of the most identifiable and arguably one of the most quintessentially-American characters from an American and World Literature perspective--is compared to the sort of State of nature Jim and Huck find themselves in when on the Raft sailing down the River.

So while it's not an ending everyone likes, I think there is some merit, I'm not the only one, and even if it's a bad ending that doesn't mean it spoils a good book.

But you've stopped reading and started typing how maps of Akron, Ohio are more important to America than the work Hemingway called "the root of all American Literature," so yeah.
Putin33 (111 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
"First of all--who said a work of literature has to have a plot to be great?"

Everybody who isn't a garble-spewing Modernist who thought "literature" meant making a book that is impossible to read.

"But dull? Never. (Well, almost never.)"

Now you're just lying. Dickens wrote in 9 paragraphs what could be said in one sentence (sounds familiar). The stories took a tiringly long time to develop. To use but one example, how long do we have to get in Tale of Two Cities before anything actually happens? And do you actually find the Bleak House anything but a snooze fest? Be honest.
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Oct 13 UTC
(+2)
Allegory is not in Putin's vocabulary.

I just thought of another great I'm sure he absolutely hates. Gulliver's Travels by Swift. It and Robinson Crusoe by Defoe are two more of my favorite classics.
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Oct 13 UTC
A Tale of Two Cities sets the stage in the beginning. But I guess you are of the MTV generation where setting the stage loses your attention span.
Invictus (240 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
(+2)
Yeah obiwanobiwan, you went very easy on him, considering Putin33 is dismissing literature in its entirety. I've seen yards of text from you defending individual authors. Couldn't make a better showing against BookBurner33?
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
03 Oct 13 UTC
(+2)
Putin, the things you've said in this thread may be the most absurd you've ever written. And that's saying a lot.
Putin33 (111 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
"Morose delectation Aquinas tunbelly calls this, frate porcospino. Unfallen Adam rode and not rutted. Call away let him: thy quarrons dainty is...Monk words, marybeads jabber on their girdles: roguewords, tough nuggets patter in their pockets" (p. 47).

And this is how the entire book is. This is just nonsense. The fact that this garble is hailed as fine fiction is a bad sign for you.

This is indefensible. Bosox and Invictus can appeal to popularity all they wish. But I doubt many if any have actually sifted through the shit that is Ulysses.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
"Dickens wrote in 9 paragraphs what could be said in one sentence (sounds familiar)."

If that's supposed to be an insult, you REALLY missed the mark...

I'll take my writing being compared to one of the giants of English Lit in any way ANY time!
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
03 Oct 13 UTC
(+1)
Putin, do you burn books in your backyard?
Putin33 (111 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
"You'll read Marx's "Das Kapital" but not "Les Mis?" Marx's tome's pretty damn big too...so clearly size isn't the issue."

Sure. Capital Vol. 1 is about 1100 pages, all of which have a point. Les Mis is about 2800. Please tell me how you can make a story about an escaped parolee into 2800 pages. And tell me how my knowledge is advanced by reading such a book vs one of the most influential economic texts of all time.

bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
03 Oct 13 UTC
(+1)
IDIOT.
Invictus (240 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
If you really need to be told why it's better to read a piece of literature that explores the human condition than it is to read an obsolete economics textbook written by a failed journalist then it's too late for you. As I said, something's broken inside you.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
(+1)
"The stories took a tiringly long time to develop."

One Putin post feels longer than the entirety of David Copperfield.

"To use but one example, how long do we have to get in Tale of Two Cities before anything actually happens? And do you actually find the Bleak House anything but a snooze fest? Be honest."

Ah, yes, because those classic opening lines,

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way"--

WHO NEEDS 'EM? I mean, just lines that rank right up there with "To be or no to be" in terms of overall literary significance and times quoted in the English language...

The whole fact that it's a mystery AND a political drama AND a trial narrative AND a love story AND a story about redemption...

Nah. That can all be set up in two pages, easy. Hell, let's just abridge a few other classics while we're at it:

Hamlet--

MOPEY KID FINDS OUT HIS DAD'S BEEN KILLED SO HE LIKE TRIES TO MAYBE KINDA SORTA FIND OUT IF HIS UNCLE DID IT AND HE DID BUT HE STILL KINDA SORTA IS UNSURE BECAUSE I THE NATURE OF HUMAN EXISTENCE AND LIFE AND SHIT AND OH YEAH EVENTUALLY HE DIES AND HIS MOMMY DIES AND HIS UNCLE DIES AND HIS GIRLFRIEND DIES AND A SHIT-TON OF PEOPLE DIE THE END!

Pfff...that hack Shakespeare, always dragging things out by, you know, trying to create characters and poetry and intrigue and drama and actually make the reader think.

The Great Gatsby:

MAN FALLS IN LOVE WITH A RICH GIRL AFTER DREAMING OF BEING RICH HIS WHOLE LIFE BECAUSE I DUNNO ALLEGORIES AND STUFF I DON'T UNDERSTAND SO HE GOES TO GREAT LENGTHS TO CREATE A MASSIVE FORTUNE IN PROHIBITION NEW YORK JUST TO GET HER ATTENTION AND BECOME THE EPITOME OF THE PEAKS AND VALLEYS AND HYPOCRISY OF THE AMERICAN DREAM BECAUSE SYMBOLISM AND STUFF AND THEN HE DIES AFTER CONFRONTING HER AND HER HUSBAND BECAUSE I DUNNO MORE STUFF I DON'T GET BECAUSE ANYTHING LONGER THAN 50 PAGES IS TOO LONG FOR ME.

The Catcher in the Rye:

SO ANOTHER MOPEY KID WHINES ABOUT HOW GROWING UP CAN CHANGE YOUR PERSPECTIVE AND HE'S NOT SURE IF HE'S READY FOR THAT OR IF HE LIKES THE FACT HE LIVES IN A SOCIETY THAT'S INCREDIBLY PHONY AND SUPERFICIAL SO HE WANDERS AROUND NEW YORK TRYING TO HAVE A HUMAN CONNECTION BECAUSE I DUNNO I GUESS THAT KIND OF SHIT'S IMPORTANT AND FINDS THAT THAT KIND OF CONNECTION IS LACKING IN MODERN AMERICAN SOCIETY BECAUSE I DUNNO CAPITALISM AND APPEARANCES AND PHONINESS AND REASONS AND STUFF AND THEN HE'S UNSURE ABOUT SEX HAHA SEX HAHAHAHAHA AND YEAH WHATEVER.

God, those writers are real idiots, these versions are MUCH better!
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Oct 13 UTC
(+2)
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way – in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only. "

A Tale of Two Cities - Opening paragraph.

"DURING the whole of a dull, dark, and soundless day in the autumn of the year, when the clouds hung oppressively low in the heavens, I had been passing alone, on horseback, through a singularly dreary tract of country; and at length found myself, as the shades of the evening drew on, within view of the melancholy House of Usher. I know not how it was -- but, with the first glimpse of the building, a sense of insufferable gloom pervaded my spirit. I say insufferable; for the feeling was unrelieved by any of that half-pleasurable, because poetic, sentiment, with which the mind usually receives even the sternest natural images of the desolate or terrible. I looked upon the scene before me -- upon the mere house, and the simple landscape features of the domain -- upon the bleak walls -- upon the vacant eye-like windows -- upon a few rank sedges -- and upon a few white trunks of decayed trees -- with an utter depression of soul which I can compare to no earthly sensation more properly than to the after-dream of the reveller upon opium -- the bitter lapse into everyday life -- the hideous dropping off of the veil. There was an iciness, a sinking, a sickening of the heart -- an unredeemed dreariness of thought which no goading of the imagination could torture into aught of the sublime. What was it -- I paused to think -- what was it that so unnerved me in the contemplation of the House of Usher? It was a mystery all insoluble; nor could I grapple with the shadowy fancies that crowded upon me as I pondered. I was forced to fall back upon the unsatisfactory conclusion, that while, beyond doubt, there are combinations of very simple natural objects which have the power of thus affecting us, still the analysis of this power lies among considerations beyond our depth. It was possible, I reflected, that a mere different arrangement of the particulars of the scene, of the details of the picture, would be sufficient to modify, or perhaps to annihilate its capacity for sorrowful impression; and, acting upon this idea, I reined my horse to the precipitous brink of a black and lurid tarn that lay in unruffled lustre by the dwelling, and gazed down -- but with a shudder even more thrilling than before -- upon the remodelled and inverted images of the gray sedge, and the ghastly tree-stems, and the vacant and eye-like windows. "

Fall of the House of Usher - opening paragraph

"arley was dead: to begin with. There is no doubt whatever about that. The register of his burial was signed by the clergyman, the clerk, the undertaker, and the chief mourner. Scrooge signed it: and Scrooge's name was good upon 'Change, for anything he chose to put his hand to. Old Marley was as dead as a door-nail.
Mind! I don't mean to say that I know, of my own knowledge, what there is particularly dead about a door-nail. I might have been inclined, myself, to regard a coffin-nail as the deadest piece of ironmongery in the trade. But the wisdom of our ancestors is in the simile; and my unhallowed hands shall not disturb it, or the Country's done for. You will therefore permit me to repeat, emphatically, that Marley was as dead as a door-nail.

Scrooge knew he was dead? Of course he did. How could it be otherwise? Scrooge and he were partners for I don't know how many years. Scrooge was his sole executor, his sole administrator, his sole assign, his sole residuary legatee, his sole friend and sole mourner. And even Scrooge was not so dreadfully cut up by the sad event, but that he was an excellent man of business on the very day of the funeral, and solemnised it with an undoubted bargain.

The mention of Marley's funeral brings me back to the point I started from. There is no doubt that Marley was dead. This must be distinctly understood, or nothing wonderful can come of the story I am going to relate. If we were not perfectly convinced that Hamlet's Father died before the play began, there would be nothing more remarkable in his taking a stroll at night, in an easterly wind, upon his own ramparts, than there would be in any other middle-aged gentleman rashly turning out after dark in a breezy spot -- say Saint Paul's Churchyard for instance -- literally to astonish his son's weak mind.

Scrooge never painted out Old Marley's name. There it stood, years afterwards, above the warehouse door: Scrooge and Marley. The firm was known as Scrooge and Marley. Sometimes people new to the business called Scrooge Scrooge, and sometimes Marley, but he answered to both names: it was all the same to him.

Oh! But he was a tight-fisted hand at the grind- stone, Scrooge! a squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, covetous, old sinner! Hard and sharp as flint, from which no steel had ever struck out generous fire; secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster. The cold within him froze his old features, nipped his pointed nose, shriveled his cheek, stiffened his gait; made his eyes red, his thin lips blue and spoke out shrewdly in his grating voice. A frosty rime was on his head, and on his eyebrows, and his wiry chin. He carried his own low temperature always about with him; he iced his office in the dogdays; and didn't thaw it one degree at Christmas.

External heat and cold had little influence on Scrooge. No warmth could warm, no wintry weather chill him. No wind that blew was bitterer than he, no falling snow was more intent upon its purpose, no pelting rain less open to entreaty. Foul weather didn't know where to have him. The heaviest rain, and snow, and hail, and sleet, could boast of the advantage over him in only one respect. They often "came down" handsomely, and Scrooge never did.

Nobody ever stopped him in the street to say, with gladsome looks, "My dear Scrooge, how are you? When will you come to see me?" No beggars implored him to bestow a trifle, no children asked him what it was o'clock, no man or woman ever once in all his life inquired the way to such and such a place, of Scrooge. Even the blind men's dogs appeared to know him; and when they saw him coming on, would tug their owners into doorways and up courts; and then would wag their tails as though they said, "No eye at all is better than an evil eye, dark master!"

But what did Scrooge care? It was the very thing he liked. To edge his way along the crowded paths of life, warning all human sympathy to keep its distance, was what the knowing ones call "nuts" to Scrooge."

A Christmas Carol - excerpt from Stanza 1.

How can you say these are boring and slow. They set the tone - the mood as it were - and in so doing prepare the reader for a wondrous journey.

A tale of two cities let's the reader know just what kind of world we will be visiting. One where there is little difference between the French and the English or between the present day and the time of the story. Almost a historical narrative.

The Fall of the House of User by Poe? The opening paragraph signals the deepening glow and impending doom of the story and contrasts the opening of The Haunted Palace so deliciously.

And finally, A Christmas Carol's opening sets the reader up by defining the depths of the blackness of Scrooge's heart and provides a shock to those unfamiliar with the story (oh to have read this when it came out) when Marley actually appears, while at the same time letting us know all is not lost with the slight diversion about the door nail versus the coffin nail.

This is literature. This is art. A history tome is not art.
krellin (80 DX)
03 Oct 13 UTC
Is it surprising to anyone that Putin hates fiction, hates Tom Clancy....hates America...hates pretty much everything and everyone...oh, except a couple of children's authors..who no doubt are writing story that strain his mental capacity.

What a pathetic piece of shit Putin is. So full of hate. I really pity that shit sucking ass clown.
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
"And this is how the entire book is. This is just nonsense. The fact that this garble is hailed as fine fiction is a bad sign for you."

Yeah, that we prize an author's bold attempt to convey Stream of Consciousness in print is surely a sign we're a shit society.

"Please tell me how you can make a story about an escaped parolee into 2800 pages."

With talent, genius, and, oh, having 2800 pages worth of things to say.

"And tell me how my knowledge is advanced by reading such a book vs one of the most influential economic texts of all time."

Given that Hugo's arguments and novel came out five years before Marx and that a good deal of Hugo's arguments are readily transferable and are something of a Marxist favorite in cases...

Oh, I dunno, I guess you might just learn about where some of those views came from, how others espoused them, and--GASP!--how others besides you in your dogmatic vapors react to them.

See, that's the thing about literature--it encourages debate.

And as has already been said, those who can't debate engage in Internet trolling.

And you, sir, are the Marxist hegemon of those without the ability to hold a candle in debate in this field or, indeed, in any field that requires you to step outside your boxed in, narrow, dogmatic viewpoint which condemns Shakespeare for taking artistic liberties with history and paints Dickens and Joyce as a waste of time while viewing your namesake as a beacon of goodliness as he jails those for the mere crime of being gay--that is, different.

And as we all know, that which is different is bad.

Thing is, I think Shakespeare, Hugo and Dickens had something to say about that kind of asinine thinking...but you were probably too busy reading a 10th-rate economic tract and saluting Vlady's portrait to listen.

After all, you're time's vitally important!

...That's why the best you can do is debate here. And badly.
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Oct 13 UTC
(+1)
"tell me how my knowledge is advanced by reading such a book vs one of the most influential economic texts of all time. "

Knowledge isn't the end all of everything. There is beauty. There is love and excitement and breathtaking wonder... A history of the conquering the American west through migration in the 19th century is hardly going to bring these out. But a fictional story built around one family's journey may well evoke emotion.

Likewise, a history of the plight of immigrants in the early 20th century might inspire some to act, but a tale of one particular immigrants fictional life in Chicago's meat packing district and what he witnessed and experienced can create a movement no history book ever could. Upton Sinclair, a respected journalist in his own right, knew this and that is why he wrote "The Jungle" instead of a bland expose of facts and figures.
Putin33 (111 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
Right, I forgot we lived in Invictus's alternative universe where people are all supremely satisfied with capitalism and aren't buying Capital Vol. 1 in record numbers. It must be fun to live in a fact-free universe where you're never held accountable for the bullshit predictions you make on a daily basis that never come true.

Invictus (240 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
(+1)
Dodge as usual, Putin33.

I doubt whatever records Das Kapital is allegedly smashing are that impressive. Four dozen rather than three dozen wouldn't be too big of a deal. And that's assuming people read it and don't just use it as a trophy to look smart like people do with Finnegans Wake or, let's be real, Road to Serfdom.
Putin33 (111 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
Obi actually made a humorous post!
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Oct 13 UTC
(+1)
@Obi - glad we cross posted and both covered Dicken's opening to my personal favorite, A Tale of Two Cities.

I read that over the summer between 6th and 7th grade and my teacher never quite grasped that, yes, I was following it and enjoying it despite her recommendation I wait a couple years until I turned in the report and she had to admit the I truly did get it.

Then she tried to get me to read Swiss Family Robinson so I begged her to let me read Robinson Crusoe instead. SWR simply not my style of story. It is to RC what Harry Potter is to LotR. :-)
Draugnar (0 DX)
03 Oct 13 UTC
*SFR not SWR of course.
Putin33 (111 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
"And that's assuming people read it and don't just use it as a trophy to look smart like people do with Finnegans Wake or, let's be real, Road to Serfdom."

Or Les Miserables or Ulysses. Let's indeed be real.

You oppressed conservatives can't simultaneously argue that Marxism has pervaded the social sciences and other academic disciplines while claiming he's "obsolete" and nobody reads him.
krellin (80 DX)
03 Oct 13 UTC
Why can't they make that claim...Christianity has pervaded society, but damn few have read the Bible...but all you blithering idiots claim to be experts on it.
Invictus (240 D)
03 Oct 13 UTC
Nice try. This is about you thinking all fiction writing sucks, not some conservative strawman.

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