Can someone provide a definition of science and a definition of psychology? Once we agree on those we can mull over the original question.

Do people not agree with the descriptions available on Wikipedia?

People who don't have to worry about studying the ever unpredictable humans are often smug about the "scientific" credentials of their discipline. It is interesting that the hard science types are always so arrogant about their disciplines, while the social science types acknowledge that everything is interrelated. I'm pretty sure Fulham still won't even come clean about what discipline he comes from, and where he gets off being such an arrogant prick.

@Putin

Why do you hate us so much? We've given you so much. Also, I defended Psychology in the other thread, so why are you, once again, lumping all Hard Scientists/Engineers together?

Psychology is the study of mind and its effects on behavior. Science is the systematic study of a subject for the purpose of revealing generalizable patterns. If you think psychology cannot be studied in this way, you're a sectarian ignoramus.

I'm not even talking about engineers. Engineers aren't in the discussion. Engineering isn't science.

I know, but you are lumping all Hard Scientists together and making false claims. Why? It adds nothing to your argument that Psychology is a real science (which I agree with).

It's not a false claim. It's a tendency. I said "often", not always. You might be an exception. Good for you. But considering I spent a friday evening arguing with an engineer about whether social sciences need to be abolished, and I've put up with Fulham's "Is Sociology/Psychology/Political Science/Economics" a science crap for a couple of years now, sorry if I'm not sympathetic to the tiny minority of hard science people who aren't full of themselves.

No, that's not what you said. Here, let me remind you:

"It is interesting that the hard science types are always so arrogant about their disciplines,"

Fulhamish is an idiot and so is your engineer friend, most likely. As someone who as almost defiantly spent more time around real engineers and scientists than you have, I can tell you they are immensely fascinated by most areas of science. There is also an amazing amount of interdisciplinary research. You are simply ignorant.

Quite frankly, it's bullshit. You call out people all the time when they are being bigoted. I'm sorry my causes aren't as noble as yours, but as the king of the PC police, you should know better than to use stereotypes on entire groups of people just because you've interacted with a few who are dicks.

Simple rule. If when you studied it at uni you spent most of the working week asleep in bed or playing video games it wasn't a real science. If you spent most of the working week in a combination of lectures and experiments/lab/whatever, whilst cursing your flatmate who was at home asleep, then it was.

I've yet to meet any who aren't dicks about it. My wife is routinely introduced by her Civil Engineer mother & Electrical Engineer father as having majored in "unemployment" (and these are two of the nicest people I know). My father-in-law routinely likes to invoke his EE degree whenever he gets in a disagreement with anybody about a science related topic. I've yet to meet an engineer that had one iota of open-mindedness when it came to anything related to education. It's just not in their DNA. If I'm a bigot, so be it.

And quite frankly, this issue is more than just an academic discussion because "STEM" gets the money they want whilst social science programs are being gutted in both the US & the UK as both countries try to corporatize academia.

So provide me examples of engineers who don't constantly wave their engineer dick in people's faces and I'll gladly eat crow. Until then, that's my impression of your field.

"If when you studied it at uni you spent most of the working week asleep in bed or playing video games it wasn't a real science"

That's a dumb rule Octavious. Most undergrad programs bear no relation to the state of the field as known by the actual practitioners of it.

But I guess you're just another one of those open-minded STEM types abgemacht assures me actually exist.

"If I'm a bigot, so be it....Until then, that's my impression of your field."

Absolutely fascinating.


So tell me, would you like me to find an open-minded engineer for every closed-minded engineer you know?

If could find one, that'd be a start.

"I've come to the opinion that math itself is not a science."

Math never pretended to be a science.

http://ece.umass.edu/faculty/william-leonard

PhD in Nuclear Physics, Professor of Electrical Engineering. Focuses on Science and Engineering Education, specifically trying to modify curriculums to better fit with current education research. You will never meet a more humble person.

http://ece.umass.edu/faculty/paul-siqueira

Another great, yet humble teacher. Brilliant Radar Engineer, but instead of designing missiles, he develops Radar technology to monitor the effects of global warming on forests.

How about everyone at the MIT Media Lab? http://www.media.mit.edu/

Pretty much the poster child for merger of arts and sciences...

Most of what I've read in econ has focused on trying to explain behavior and find patterns of behavior. Political science borrows much of its game theoretic modelling from economics. We spend most of our time trying to understand why actors - be they economic or political - make the choices they make, and how institutions change incentives for economic & political decision-making.

Considering just how complex economies are, I'd say economics has done a damn good job making accurate predictions about important events. Since one of the big criteria for being a science is the ability to predict, to even question economics as a science is just fucking ignorant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Nye

Has a degree in Mechanical Engineer, yet spent his career teaching science to children.

@Putin

I've now matched you 1-for-1, plus everyone at the Media Lab. Does that mean you'll change your opinion? I can keep going.

Here's an entire department *within the College of Engineering* for Engineering Education. http://www.onu.edu/node/33193

But, I guess Engineers don't really care about education...

Abgemacht. Your straw man here is humorous. I never said they didn't care about education. Show me where I did. Nor do I know what your name dropping is supposed to prove, exactly, by the sheer force of name dropping.

"I've yet to meet an engineer that had one iota of open-mindedness when it came to anything related to education."--Putin33

You asked me to find Engineers who weren't dicks. And I did.

@abegemacht: " s someone who as almost defiantly spent more time around real engineers and scientists than you have"

Why are you so defiant around them? Can't you just accept them for who they are?

Open-mindedness...yes (meaning they think engineering is the bestest and social science is just politicized pseudo-science). So how does that comport with your distortion of what I said?

Dicks about being engineers, yes. I said, if you'll recall, that my in-laws are both great people. Why do I have to repeat everything I say?

Examples 1 and 4 clearly show Engineers and Scientists who value the opinion of educators outside their field.

Example 3 clearly shows Engineers who value working with Liberal Artists.

What exactly are you unclear on?