I agree with Jacob... I have never told a player he is talking too much to me.

I am on my phone now so cannot post much, but I agree with both jacon and fortknox - history does not replace a need for diplomacy. I stand by my statement that it can be an indicator of things that may be visited upon the unwary ;)

Hello everyone, and sorry I am late for the party. I didn't realize the thread had started, and then work/soccer/eating food got in the way.


I hope to see a great game, with tons of talking, strategizing, and ultimately betraying by everyone here.

You see, I regard the above as the the three essential pillars of any Diplomacy strategy.
1) Talk talk talk!
I know everyone above me has harped on this point, but in a game called Diplomacy there can *never*, I repeat never, be too much talking. There are essentially no reasons not to in a closed system like php, unless you are just a really annoying person who aggravates everyone they talk to. cough cough. kidding :)

What are the goals of talking? It may seem weird to adress this, but I think it is important to realize all you should be trying to achieve in your press. (I will use an alphabetical system for this part)

a) Establishing connections with everyone. There are always important reasons that you want to be thinking about the opposite end of the board, and sending quick messages to everyone off the bat is a great way to do that.
b) Create positive relationships. This is a bit funky at times, but I generally find that players are more willing to work with me/ help me/obey me if I build up rapport talking about miscellaneous or just general topics in a friendly way.
c) Spread gossip and other information. Yes, as England, you can affect what Turkey does; obtaining, falsifying, hinting- all these things can be used to great affect to try to convince someone of a diffcult choice
d) And obviously, the last one- planning. After you have established allies with someone, try to talk as much as possible about moves, plans, and such, unless you specifically want them to avoid thinking about what is going to happen to them when you have 12 centres and they have 8.... But in general, discourse and openess build trust. Even talking alot to enemies can occassionally yield boons. Never alienate anyone verbally; you never know when you may need thier help.

In conclusion then, talk often, talk well, and talk to everyone.


2. The second essential pillar is obviously strategy.

Always be thinking about what effect your moves will have on the ENTIRE board.

One of the things that seperate a rookie player from a great player is that rookie players are often fixated on short term gain and short term strategies, while competant players are always aware of not only the whole board, but the board and several years ahead.

For example, the classic distinction of long term versus short term thinking; The Italy/Austria relationship.

Say you are Italy. You and Austria agree to not attack eachother the first turn, but you are feeling sneaky so you move Ven to Tyr and Rom to Ven. Autumn comes around. Austria has left Trieste, and looks in trouble in the east, possibly not even getting one build total due to a failed attempt at Rumania. You've told them you are attacking Germany. Seeming desperate, Austria claims to believe you.

Now, Austria is pratically defensive! Perfect time to attack right?

No! Any player worth thier salt will tell you that at the first sign of an Austro-Turkish alliance, Italy must not harm Austri in the slightest. Why? Because Russia and Turkey will grow incredibly quickly, and will have the path westward laid open to them. A faltering Austria is the #1 reason that 'juggernaughts' appear.

The lesson here, is to always keep in mind all of the effects of moves.

Should Germany bounce Russia out of Sweden? Well, that question can only be answered by looking at the Russian state of affairs in the south.

Every single move should be analyzed for its consequences.

Obviously, there is a lot more to tactics and strategy, but that is one of the most important underlying elements.



3- And finally, betraying when the time is right. Or rather, don't take your eye of the goal of the game.

In my opinion, every game should be pursued with victory in mind, and if not that, then a draw. I accept that some people are fine with survives and such, but your eyes must always be on the end goal.

Always strategize, plan, send out press with this in mind.

When you betray someone, make sure it is for that cause.

hmm, now I don't really know what this last point is about anymore, but I think I'll conclude with;

Cheaters never prosper, but sneaks and betayers do! Sometimes.



haha, alright I'm not making sense anymore. So, this here is the ginormous 1st installment of my pregame strategy pep talk. It will be followed by a country specific one tomorrow.

Night all.

Guys - I just want to say thank you to all the vets... both those in-game and those giving commentary... THIS is exactly how I envisioned the SoW series to go.. and I'm hopeful that this advice will help the new players and even the slightly experienced ones :)

again to all the new players... dont hesitate to ask questions... why a vet says something or other that you dont quite understand... feel free to ask. and notice, in many cases, even great vets disagree with each other... so be inquisitive and find out which advice is most appropriate for your play style or for your position in a given game.

And lastly - one thing everyone does agree on - talk talk talk talk... ;)

dip away!!!

Also, something I've noticed on this site that should be addressed early:
If you get stabbed, sometimes the stabber is under heavy duress and will ask the stabbee for help... it is good (most of the time) to have a short memory... I've won a game with someone who stabbed me early multiple times... alliances switch, and aggressor can become a powerful ally... so check your anger at the door and be open to alliances with unlikely players!

That brings up a good point.

Your relations with your neighbors can change radically *each and every phase*. Just because Germany tried to get into Burgundy in Spring 01, for example, doesn't mean he might not be willing to help you into Belgium in Fall 01.

And of course those two nations that keep on jockeying for position, looking like they're nicely distracted? They could be planning something sneaky, and you shouldn't assume that just because they spar now means they'll do so forever....

I just saw the openings and thought I'd put my 2 cents in.

Interesting that there was no bounce in Bur, Gal or the Black Sea! Places where bounces are likely to be arranged.

Most of these openings are pretty standard, except the very interesting opening by Turkey. Not sure what is going on with Turkey, but I think that the Turk is in trouble! Probably should have moved into Armenia (or held) rather than move to Ankara.

Good news for Italy and Austria both moving out of Tri and Ven.

Especially good for Austria having both a friendly Italy and Russia and a Turkey on the back foot! Can Austria keep both allies?

Bad news for England with France and Germany looking like buddies and Russia moving Moscow into St. Petersburg.

I'd guess that Germany, having a French friend, and with Russia gaining the Black Sea will stand Russia out of Sweden.

Maybe Russia, seeing an allied Germany and France will make friends with England and ally with Austria to take on Turkey?

So it begins.

France has taken a safe, nonconfrontational opening which will allow him to take Spain and Portugal but concedes Belgium to Germany or England - or neither if they bounce.

England did the standard northern opening, and it looks like that's a good move, as Russia has moved to bounce him out of Sweden. Possible quid-pro-quo going on between Russia and Germany - Germany doesn't bounce Russia from Sweden, and Russia moves in a way that forces England to concede Belgium or risk having zero builds

Germany is looking like they may get three builds, usually not a bad thing - unless it makes France and England team up on him.

Italy... I don't know what to make of the Italian move, unless there was an agreement to demilitarize VEN and TRI. In this case it's a safe bet Austria wouldn't jump him, as he'd require two units to guarantee control of VEN in case of a stab, which would leave him naked to anyone else who moved on him.

Austria is in a fine position. Unless turkey can convince Italy to support him, Austria is guaranteed two builds, as there isn't any reason not to seize Greece - unless he's offering it to Italy. The Russian northern opening gives him even more security, at least in the short term.

Russia is in a decent position, but still isn't guaranteed anything - which is common for Russia in the beginning. Turkey and Austria could still bounce him in RUM, Germany could bounce him in Sweden, and he's unlikely to get England to surrender Norway without a fight. However, his openings are such that he can (diplomatically) claim whatever he wants to whomever he wants - it *could* be a Juggernaut, it could be him moving on Turkey, who knows?

Turkey is in a world of hurt. Even if Russia isn't hostile - and that the lack of hostility continues - the apparent alliance between Austria and Italy is ominous. A lack of control of the Black Sea makes a poor strategic situation even worse. It's even possible that Russia will either strike at one of the home SCs (hoping it will be vacant) or support Serbia into Rumania, facing Turkey with a quick elimination. Fortunately, Russia is unlikely to want a quick collapse of Turkey and will want him to tie up Austria for a bit, and hence is highly unlikely to make the latter move.

Winners: Austria, Germany
Losers: England, Turkey.

But today's winners can be tomorrow's punching bag, so nothing is written in stone yet. Without knowing what diplomatic moves are going on behind the scenes, it's impossible to predict what will happen in the East during the fall. The west is more predictable - Germany gets three builds, France two, England one.

Just want to say a quick thank you to our commentators for commenting so quickly. This really makes the game fun and educational for everyone. I think I am going to learn a lot from this game as well just by seeing how my own moves are perceived by an outsider.

Thanks!

I'm guessing a Juggernaut will be dificult for Russia to set up. Turkey is not going to be happy about that move in the Black sea, although it can be rectified.
Austria is going to have to be careful about how he expands: he has the superficially better position, and subsequent loss of diplomatic parity, without the superior resources of Germany's 3 builds. It is also quite possible that an I/A/R attack on Turkey will not benefit Austria as he will be left surrounded by the other 2.

Not necessarily re: the Jugg.

It's pretty rare that a Juggernaut starts off with Russia and Turkey announcing to the world "We're coming for you, raaawr!". It's possible that Russia told Turkey what his moves were, and that they're working together, but maintaining the illusion they are at odds to prevents th rest of the board from uniting against them.

This is a double edged sword, of course. If either Russia or Turkey appear vulnerable in Fall 01, it's quite possible for one partner to go "ehh, forget this Jugg thing, I see me a few empty supply centers!". A 'false' attack to distract the opposition can easily turn into a real one.

Of course, there is a fine line between being opportunistic and being seen as someone who inevitably lashes out at any available opening. The latter just makes it more likely that people won't *give* you openings, which forces you to garrison your own territory, and can stop your forward progress.

You can't advance in the early game without the support - either overt or accidental - of others. Building trust is important, for how else will you get the opportunity to screw them later?

You're the experienced one.

Experienced = been screwed over myself enough to have painful memories ;)

I must admit I was able to sort together a juggernaut after Rus F(BLA) but I got so many concessions that once the Juggernaut started rolling I was always in the best position to stab.

bump

Ack, I almost forgot. The moves are in!

gaah, interesting/usual moves all around but I am too exhausted to provide a careful analysis right now.

I will be back tommorrow, either during lunch or after work, depending on how things work out.

I've actually setup a jugg by doing a seva-con switch (allowing russia to get into the med, giving turk an extra fleet to take on italy), then switched back the following year. Unfortunately, turkey then went CD, and we both lost... but it was a great opening, everyone thinking we were at each other's throat, when it was a well placed feint.

bump

Nice work by Russia, picking up 2 SCs and keeping friendly with everyone. I often wonder if having 2 different powers support you into the same territory is wise (in this case Rumania). At the time it seems wise, since you are covering yourself against any treachery, but once the moves are in it may look bad, playing both sides. Thoughts anyone? Has this ever gone bad for anyone?

Everyone seems to be off to a pretty good, hassle free start.

Looks like this'll be a good game.

Also looks like a Juggernaut might be on the way, although it may be too early to tell for sure. Russia could go either way!

I didn't have two powers support me into Rumania, I had THREE powers support me in - Rumania is MINE!!! *evil laughter* =)

what is France up to?
Why convoy from Gas-Por when he's got an army in Spain.
Gas-Spain and Spain-Por would have left him with his armies in the same position and freed up his fleet to either annoy England or Italy.

Mybe France doesn't want to annoy England or Italy. If he is alled with England then annoyance is not good.

The Lisbon Leapfrog?

Well, England is in for a world of hurt. With the Russia move to Finland allowing a build in STP, he's going to be able to take Sweden with ease. The only thing that might prevent that is a German move on Sweden, and the bounce in Belgium is an indication that Germany and England are not best buddies. Groveling may be an excellent idea here.

France can build fleets in Mar or Brest and convoy those armies... whereever he wants. Which way he will move will depend on relations with the rest of the board - he may want a piece of the English pie before he goes poof, or he may preempt Italy.

Germany appears to have good relations with Russia, but he should be wary of a fleet build, and make sure he and Russia are on the same page regarding who gets what chunk of England. An army build by Russia in Warsaw could pay dividends if he chose to take a shot at Silesia.

Russia has two builds, and has convinced both Austria and Turkey he is working with them. With the Italians and Austrians apparently working together, it is likely that Turkey is next to go - I would expect to see a build in SEV, probably an army.

Turkey is acting as if the fix is in with Russia, but I really have to wonder how long that will hold. Italy and Austria are obviously working together, so Turkey isn't going to be able to force his way into ION. Two builds for Austria make it unlikely a Spring 02 attack with Russia on Serbia would succeed, so there really isn't any point in Russia supporting Turkey for long. Even a build in Warsaw is going to end up with a stalemated frontier, so I don't see Russia being in Turkey's corner much longer.

Austria has two builds, always a good thing, and an apparent strong partner in Italy. I would expect two army builds, but I would be surprised by a quick stab at Italy - it would just leave him vulnerable to moves by Turkey / Russia. The smart move will be to continue to hammer at Turkey, and make sure Russia doesn't get too much of the pie, but Italy *does* get a piece, so he doesn't feel like a third wheel.

Italy is well set for a Lepano, albeit a bit of an unconventional one. Using the army currently in Tunis would be smart, as leaving yourself *unable* to respond to a stab is the best way to make sure you get nailed. I'd expect a fleet build, but I'd also expect APU to move back to Venice.

Winners: Russia, Austria
Losers: Turkey, England

pmub

Quick question - referring to the recent School of War general post, where it says (in terms of the object of these games)

"3) to help all players learn the values of WTA games and gain a better understanding of the dynamics of WTA games as opposed to PPSC games".

Perhaps this will clarify later on (as it is still early) but comments from the observors, or the ingame vets, along this line would be helpful as well - thus far I have only played ppsc games myself, and if this does add a very different dynamic to the game it would be good to pick up on this :)

jason - that is a great question indeed.

The main dynamic of ppsc vs wta starts to show up in the mid to late game. in the early game (usually up to 1903 or 04) players are finding early alliances and until the first 2 or even 3 players have not been eliminated, really not much is different to an observer. it is in the mid-game where in a WTA game, you make assessments about who might solo, and thus work to prevent that likelyhood, and particularly in the late game when all 'trailing' players really (try to) work hard to stop a solo by setting up a stalemate line.

The only big difference in the early game is one that cant be observed, which is the actual diplomacy going on among the players. whereas in a ppsc game, some players ask for or actively look for a game-long ally in a WTA game everyone understands that this is an unrealistic objective at best and tries to center their diplomacy on more immideate concerns... now as the game progresses, that means that in a WTA game you need far more diplomacy to keep your allies, make new ones, and set up good stabs... whereas in ppsc games, you can usually skate along with far less diplomacy as long as you and your ally have built up an understanding...

so that's my answer - other vets might have other observations to share as well.

With PPSC, a second place finish is still helpful to your points total, so game long alliances and a second power helping the #1 power often happens. In WTA, finishing second is no better than finishing with 1 SC, and you walk away with zero points, so it is much more likely that as soon as someone takes the lead, all the other players will ally temporarily to knock the leader down.

Alliances tend to shift dramatically in WTA and stabs are much more likely.