Draug and ck, its a little of both. Teachers don't "shut down," they only work less. Lesson plans need to be made, new standards learned, supplies obtained, professional development attended, scheduling done, class rosters drafted, classrooms cleaned and reset, etc. Teachers will always take a few well deserved weeks off in the summer, but there is always something that needs to be done, especially now that states are implementing Common Core and APPR.

People are sometimes surprised at how much college professors make (although it's less than it used to be, and for fewer people), but that's a good income after a decade of getting paid practically nothing while you complete a PhD. Likewise, even elementary school teachers need more education, and continuing education; that should, although it doesn't, show up in how they get paid.

A lot of the time, teaching is kind of like tax accounting. It's not a 40 hour a week job during "season," whether that's the semester or getting ready for April 15; it's a 50 or 60 or 80 hour a week job. So, it's natural that hours are, or at least should be, shorter the rest of the year.

I think there is a very, very big difference between teachers and professors. To lump them in the same conversation I think will get very confusing.

The people I know with doctorates are a pretty big step above about 99% of the rest of the educational world.

It's good to look at it like ckroberts just did, though. By hours, not days or months.

Wow that was a long deploy! Lunch at last at quarter til 2...

@ck - Working a second job during the summer doesn't count as working the techer job. They get paid for that second job during the summer. So that is a false flag if ever there was one.

But I will accept that even a grade school teacher may have some work over the summer. I just know a lot of my friends from high school who went on to become elementary and junior high teachers pretty much party throughout June and July. They hold so many beer bashes at the local bars. Meanwhile, I continue to work a 40 or 50 or 60 (or even 70 or 80 depending on my clients deadlines) work week all summer long. Yet those who have been teaching more than 20 years are making 60k for the 9-10 months they work. To me, that just seems to not fit the definition of "poorly". If they feel they need to work a summer job, so be it, but don't make that out to be because they are paid poorly. It is because they only work the 50 or 60 hour week during the 9 months school is in session.

Lesson plans? Thanks to "No Child Allowed To Excel", those are done *for* them. They teach from a specified book on a specified schedule to a specified test.

@bo - Please note Iwas referring to grade 8 and under. I readily admit high school teachers have plenty of summer work as they have the slackers taking summer schools, the excellent students wanting to take independent study courses, and sports and drama and other extracurricular activities that don't limit themselves to the school year. Hell, most high school teachers work 70 hour weeks I'm sure when you take into account their providing guidance in extracurricular activities and grading papers/tests on subjects a little more difficult than 8th grade Algebra and American History from a proscribed text book.

"it's a 50 or 60 or 80 hour a week job. So, it's natural that hours are, or at least should be, shorter the rest of the year. "

Why? It isn't for any other professional. I am in my 11th week of 70+ hour weeks. That's right, in the third month of it. I had maybe a month of 40-50 hours weeks after get off the last 60-70 hour week assignment which lasted 6 months long. When this project wraps, I might get a few weeks before the next big one comes in and the whole thing starts for 3-6 months. But those 2-4 week (*week* mind you) breaks are still 40-50 hour work weeks getting paperwork caught up and making certain the source code is stored in TFS and refreshing my computer for the next project. They get 2-3 months slack in between their runs, I'm lucky if I get 2 months total on the year of only 50 hour weeks. Why should they get any more of a break than me if they want the same pay as me? They want 2 months of 20 hour weeks, let them take 2 months at half pay.

Oh, and all professionals have continuing education. IT certifications, physicians staying up on the latest medical procedures, lawyers keeping up on new and relavent case law, accountants staying up to date ont he latest changes to the tax code. We all do it. There is nothing special about teachers int hat regard. They just haven't experienced the 50 hour a week, 50 week per year grind professions to realize they aren't the only one working long hours and still staying educated and certified. They just get a 3 month break of droipping back to half time if you like where as the other professions get 2 or 3 weeks vacation but are from 40-80 hours per week the rest of the year.

@Draug

If you really work that much, you either have really bad time management or you're doing 2 jobs and only getting paid for one.

Yeah. Draug, if it's accurate that that's true for most professionals (which I don't think it is), that's more a sign of problems with American work culture than with what teachers are getting paid. "Overworked and paid poorly" isn't remedied by "other people are paid reasonably but more overworked."

I really want to meet all these teachers who have worked for twenty years, are making 60,000 a year, and spend their summers doing beer bashes at local bars.

Draugnar's a liar. All you need to know.

@abge - At the moment, it's the latter. We are understaffed so I am handling two full time client's at once, both with urgent deadlines. One is Plantronic's (the headset people) to get a new configuration tool out and beat the Holiday season. The other is a B2B client who just got bought out by a biggr customer and the pressure is one to show the new owners that the product is worthwhile so they'll buy even more licenses.

@ck - Come to West Chester Ohio. I'll introduce you to them at the next monthly "Class Reunion" which I almost never attend (I don't like getting drunk and I *don't* smoke pot).

Did you tell them the one about being a full time student while working 70 hours a week draugnar? That was the best!

Hey Santa. Fuck off you half wit gubermint flunky who thinks just because he isn't allowed to go into work and get paid means he can't go get another *real* job in the *real* world of the private sector.

Oh absolutely. I'm sure finding a job that would accept me for the duration of the shutdown on a term basis, and find it in 3 days is realistic. But I'm sure in a world where a active online forum participant works 70 hours a week and still goes to school full time any things possible!

Draug

Working 2 jobs for the pay of one doesn't mean your job is more "real"; it means you're a sucker.

To be fair... He doesn't

Also, out of curiosity, what's "real" about CEOs getting golden parachutes for running companies into the ground?

What's "real" about running to the government crying for a bailout because your company isn't self-sufficient?

What's "real" about building a business that relies on paying workers so little that they need government subsidies even when they work full-time?

This whole government/academic jobs aren't "real" nonsense is just that: pure nonsense.

What are you talking about agbe? It's like Nam in there! Like an air conditioned, overpaid, ultimately purposeless (maybe that's consistent) Nam. These guys are martyrs!

"Lesson plans? Thanks to "No Child Allowed To Excel", those are done *for* them. They teach from a specified book on a specified schedule to a specified test."

This is probably the biggest crock of shit you've ever spewed. Some teachers teach from the book. Those teachers are horrible. The same goes for the teachers who you claim party all summer. Those are the teachers giving the good ones a bad name. If you want to claim that teaching is like any other profession, then look at teaching with the same lens you'd use with lawyers - the small minority of bad ones give the majority a bad name.

I saw it myself in both my undergrad and masters - people who go into teaching for all the wrong reasons, or people who went into education because they weren't really good at much else. Its that fallback mentality that casts teaching in a negative light.

Any moron can go into teaching. The same goes for IT, accounting, and any other career. It takes a talented individual to be an excellent teacher. These are the teachers that do spend the summer improving their craft, prepping for next year, and learning from experience. The ones who spend their time partying with last year's crop of seniors are the ones who give teachers and teachers unions a bad name.

Textbook teachers have the highest ratings in only one category - percentage of students falling asleep in class.

2WL -- I just had my parent-teacher conferences - I question my math teacher about her methods, the "tools" they were using, etc. There was a kind of sadnes in her eyes and to the tone of her voice as she pretty much said she had no choice in what and how she teaches, and confessed that yes, she is pretty much teaching to the test because she has no choice.

Anyone that thinks Federal regulations are not perverting out education, who thinks they are not hand-cuffing our teachers is either totally ignorant of what is going on, or is just a parrot of the administration.

For the record, my kid's getting all A's in this math class...she learning, etc...but when I inquired as to why the teacher was doing what she was doing, or the timing of what was taught when, etc...she said no, she has not always taught this way, and she has disagreements with the curriculum, methods she is *required* to use, etc....but she is being forced by the government to do what she does and when she does it.

I always kind of feel bad for math teachers, since they're the ones who are the most handcuffed by tests and what needs to be taught. Very little room for creativity.

This is one reason why Common Core is, in spirit, a good idea. Regardless of your opinion on federal involvement in education, CC encourages more creativity and critical thinking in subject areas. Unfortunately, because of initiatives like NCLB and Race to the Top, money is still tied to achievement, which is measured by tests. Until funding isn't determined by testing, you'll always have cases of teachers hamstrung by the tests.

Also, as more districts are moving toward a teacher rating system using annual performance improvements measured by testing improvements, its only going to put more pressure on teachers to boost achievement. New York implemented its teacher rating system this past year and the system was so vaguely worded that nobody I know in education knew what the hell was required of them.

@abge - "Working 2 jobs for the pay of one doesn't mean your job is more "real"; it means you're a sucker."

Well, arguably, I make the pay of most two income households and my end of year bonus is normally another 15-20k as well. So, 120k per year total... Totally worth it.

@Santa - I said fuck off, shit sucker!

"This whole government/academic jobs aren't "real" nonsense is just that: pure nonsense."

Where did I say academic jobs weren't real inb this thread. No where! Don't put words in my mouth!

And where did I say all jobs in the government weren't real jobs. No where! I was strictly referring to shit sucker Santa's job which was clearly unimportant enough that they could shut down his department and send him home for three days.

Oh and Santa. If you had *any* skills, you could have gone and gotten a job that afternoon that you just promptly quit when this was settled. Amazon is hiring temp workers for $13 per hour right now in Northern Kentucky. I'm sure there is something similar around DC. Walmart, maybe?

Why does every white collar ignoramus think they can performance-review teachers? Do you know anything about teaching? I'd like to see you do it, Draugnar, Krellin. Otherwise, shut up.

@Draug

I'm not saying you don't get paid well, just not nearly as well as you let on when you consider how much you work.

Also, basing whether or not a particular government job is important based on if it's paid for with mandatory or discretionary spending is not really valid.

Putin - assmuncher - I did not criticize my child's teacher. In fact, I *sympathized* with her, you shit sucking fool. Clearly you are a product of public education, as your reading skills are clearly deficient. I am only reporting to you WHAT THE TEACHER SAID TO ME, asshole.