@Sbyvl, towards your opening post, but towards most of the replies as well.

This breaks my "haven't muted any threads in ages" streak.

@Jack Klein: Actually, Article One Section Eight and Amendment Ten are quite clear.

@jmo: Care to debate, or...

Ahhh fuck it, I'd rather watch you all laugh your asses off at him.

Their reply (and they're female, not male):

"This is the dumbest thing I've seen"
AND
"I recommend him starting with an Econ 101"
AND
"Number 4 is hilarious. if that was the case, there would be no poor nations... inflation doesn't work that way."

So I'm going to take my friend, who is a highly qualified Ph.D. candidate with a masters in economics over... you. Who is a crank on the internets. :)

Hey Bo, want to try and make this a debate in which we DONT resort to ad hominem?

No. No I don't.

Actually, that is how inflation works. As the Thatcher years proved, controlling the money supply controls inflation. So, if we extend that slightly, such as a moratorium on printing money, we would, by definition, raise the value of the dollar. How would there be no poor nations? It would only apply to us. And countries with inflation are poor countries (Somalia, Viet-Nam, etc)

@Jack Klein: Show me her credentials.

So I'd like to hear what you will do to fix the problems your steps will cause.

1) Eliminate all federal taxes, including, but not limited to, those on income and corporations. Replace with a tariff system on foreign imports.

(I'll skip this one for now)

2) Eliminate all federal subsidies, including, but not limited to, those to corporations, as well as, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, and Food stamps.

How would this work, would people who have been told they can count on SS their entire career just be thrown to the sharks? How about people who are starving, do you propose some other method to keep them from starving?

3) Eliminate the bureaucracies, including, but not limited to, the NSA, and the TSA.

How are you going to catch people who want to blow us to hell? Would you privatize airport security? I agree the TSA is a joke, but some type of alternative is needed.

4) Control inflation by putting a moratorium on printing money. This will cause the value of the Dollar to skyrocket, making everyone wealthier immediately.

(I'll skip this one too since other people are covering it).

5) Cut $2 Trillion in government spending. This can be achieved through the things mentioned above, and by eliminating things like the National Parks and other ridiculous public works projects. End all pork barrel spending.

So there are these things called trees and nature, they make this wonderful thing called oxygen for us, which is made in large amounts in national parks. Not to mention the money these places draw in through tourism. What else do you consider public works? Also, why 2 Trillion? That seems like a rather specific amount.

Sbyvl, how old are you, exactly?

So you say it is, and the masters in economics lady says it isn't.

I'm not going to take your word for it, bucko.

So you haven't answered my question: What qualifications in economics do you have? Have you even taken Econ 101?

Deflation doesn't make everybody better off. If it did, we would pursue deflationary policies. Deflation makes everyone worse off because nobody spends money. They hoard it in anticipation of future price decreases and everyone is worse off.

And yes, I am qualified to speak about economics, if you may ask.

I'll respond to Jmo first:

2. They'd be fine when we eliminate all taxes.
3. Yes, privatize airport security. And yes, an alternative is needed: A private one.
5. It's not the government's job to take care of it. [See: Article One Section Eight]. I would sell the national parks to private owners. $2 Trillion for the reason that the deficit is $1 Trillion, so it would be nice to have a surplus of $1 Trillion.

@2WL: Yea, because inflation works SO well (Weimar Republic, Zimbabwe, etc etc etc). Deflation has worked everytime it has been tried, so I don't know what you are talking about.

The power to regulate federally owned land is contained in Article 4, Section 3, Clause 2:

"The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State."

And the Court has held that this power is basically without limits. Congress can do whatever it wants with federal land, there are no restrictions. They can make it a park, they can sell it off, or whatever.


Glad you're such a sharp Constitutionalist there, Sbyvl.

@JK: Exactly, they can sell it off.

I'd like to make an official offer for Yellowstone National Park. I have $1.27 in my pocket right now, so I am offering $1.27 for the whole lot.

"2. They'd be fine when we eliminate all taxes." So an unemployed person living on the streets will have all that extra money they are saving on their home taxes...wait...ummm well they will save on the money taken out of their paycheck...oh wait...see the problem?

But you were making the claim that its not the government's job to take care of it.

And I think I just proved you wrong. You should actually try reading the document, and maybe some case law.

I'm aware that informing and educating yourself is antithetical to your crackpottery, but you should give it a try anyhow.

That person should get off their ass and find a job.

I said it's not the government's job to take care of the environment. You misunderstood.

Really, how's that?

Ad Hominem.

2WL has already given his thoughts, so here are mine.

1) Eliminate all federal taxes, including, but not limited to, those on income and corporations. Replace with a tariff system on foreign imports.

Your argument is that pre-Wilson, the United States funded itself completely by tariffs and can do so again if we pare down the government's size. My counter is that tariffs will not work in a modern international economic system. Tariffs are a major, major reason why the Great Depression lasted as long as it did. As each country's revenues fell, they raised tariffs, which lowered imports (good for domestic jobs) but resulted in less exports from other countries, which in turn caused their recessions to deepen.

Today, if the US were to raise tariffs, not only are you going to make the cost of living increase for almost every American, but you're going to slow down the US economy big time.

2) Eliminate all federal subsidies, including, but not limited to, those to corporations, as well as, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, and Food stamps.

I agree there is waste, but how do you propose the current poor and elderly pay for their food and medical expenses? Food kitchens right now can barely cope with the demand. How are the current elderly going to get an income? While I agree there's a better way to do this than the current system, it is statistically proven that (even before) social security came out people did not save enough money for retirement. It's just not human nature.

3) Eliminate the bureaucracies, including, but not limited to, the NSA, and the TSA.

Ok. What are you replacing them with? The government has an obligation (Constitutionally) to provide for the common defense. Are you including the military in your bureaucracy? What about the EPA? The SEC? The FBI?

4) Control inflation by putting a moratorium on printing money. This will cause the value of the Dollar to skyrocket, making everyone wealthier immediately.

If everyone is wealthier, no one is wealthier. Also, we don't have a problem with inflation, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

5) Cut $2 Trillion in government spending. This can be achieved through the things mentioned above, and by eliminating things like the National Parks and other ridiculous public works projects. End all pork barrel spending.

I agree in principle to end pork barrel spending, but I think you go a bit too far. The National Interstate Highway system sparked one of the biggest economic booms in the country's history. And National Parks are nice. Don't get rid of them.

Of course, you couldn't be more right, because finding a job is so easy when the countries industries are failing because of crackpot policies

1. Speechless. The only reason the Depression lasted so long is because Roosevelt taxed, spent, and handed-out. WWII pulled us out, and we went back in after the war. Wilson's policies caused a crash even worse than 1929 in 1921, but the difference is that Harding came into office, cut taxes, slashed spending, and we were out in four months.

2. Yes, because it is not the government's responsibility to take care of that. They should either get insurance or get a job.

3. I said we should replace them with private companies. Not the military. Yes for EPA, Yes for SEC, No for the FBI.

4. Yea, because our currency isn't worth 3% of what it was in 1776...

5. The Highway system should have been done privately. I wouldn't want to end national parks, just privatize them.

And why is everyone obsessed with my age? ILN, I answered that in another thread. If you're interested, find it.

1. Have you taken courses on the Great Depression? Do you know what a Depression is? After every war there is a crash. It's just the natural course of reduced government spending and millions of soldiers flooding the job market. Paul Krugman gives a very good explanation here.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/01/1921-and-all-that/?_r=0

2. What about the current elderly? The 70 year olds whose incomes you'd be stripping away? The disabled and mentally retarded?

3. And who will pay these private companies? The reason why things are public goods are that they're not profitable for private companies to invest in without some form of government mandate. Who will provide oversight for these companies? Other private companies? Because we know that works so well with credit rating agencies...

4. No currency is, and since things are all relative, what is the problem?

5. Again, who would pay? People go to national parks because they're *free*

I stopped reading at "Paul Krugman"

Try to find a non-Marxist to back up your idiocy.

"1) Eliminate all federal taxes, including, but not limited to, those on income and corporations. Replace with a tariff system on foreign imports."
As a libertarian I strongly, and absolutely disagree with this point. The need for free trade is too important, and tariffs will hurt consumers more then taxes do. Especially if were talking about tariffs high enough to fund the government.

My proposal is a 15% sales tax and a 1% property tax.

"2) Eliminate all federal subsidies, including, but not limited to, those to corporations, as well as, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, and Food stamps."
Ummm no. I see two areas that the federal government needs subsidize:
Basic research and Education (public education should be run by state governments, but subsidized by the federal government).

"3) Eliminate the bureaucracies, including, but not limited to, the NSA, and the TSA."
Agreed

"4) Control inflation by putting a moratorium on printing money. This will cause the value of the Dollar to skyrocket, making everyone wealthier immediately."
Somebody doesn't understand economics:
Value isn't derived by the strength of the dollar, but by the value of the goods that dollar can buy.

The strength of the dollar means nothing, for in reality it doesn't effect the amount of goods produced and purchased by Americans, just the amount of dollars it costs.

"5) Cut $2 Trillion in government spending. This can be achieved through the things mentioned above, and by eliminating things like the National Parks and other ridiculous public works projects. End all pork barrel spending."
I kinda agree here, but it depends on what would be cut. Ending medicare and medicaid would cut a big chunk of spending. So would the cuts to national defence as well as ending the NSA. So I agree that this is realistic.

"These five things alone will stabilize the economy and get this country out of the hole, but there are many more things we can do. Discuss."
Ummm no
Tariffs will increase the costs of doing business in this country with foreign countries and would vastly increase the prices of most consumer goods. It would also limit our access to resources that America isn't in abundant.

The lack of some subsidies will hurt our long run competitiveness.

The deflation from your goal of a strong dollar would increase the likelihood of bankruptcy, and the lack of welfare would kill thousands of those who go bankrupt due not to their own doing, but the fault of your terrible economics.