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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
Page 1045 of 1419
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MeepMeep (100 D)
12 Apr 13 UTC
I missed a turn because of the server error.
Hi, This morning I could not log in.
"Apologies for the downtime, the server ran out of disk space. Our new disk will be configured this weekend. All games have been given extra time to compensate. Thanks for your patience."

As the result, one of my game missed a turn. Everyone else moved excepted me. What do I do now?
82 replies
Open
captainmeme (1723 DMod)
12 Apr 13 UTC
(+1)
WebDip vs VDip
Not sure if this has already been posted here, but Gen Lee suggested a tournament between the best players here and the best players on VDip, including Classic games and variant games to give both factions some home ground to fight on.
Any of you up for it? We've already got a small team together and hopefully some of the other top VDip players will volunteer soon.
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blankflag (0 DX)
12 Apr 13 UTC
what is their forum like
Halt (270 D)
12 Apr 13 UTC
I'm pretty sure this hasn't been posted here yet, cap'n. I am pretty excited to this take off since I volunteered for the VDip group.

@blankflag: format wise same as here. Content wise? Less trolls, less useless posts to read through, although their conversations aren't as interesting as some of the things around here.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
12 Apr 13 UTC
#fuckvdip
Thucydides (864 D(B))
12 Apr 13 UTC
webdip.com haterz only
Fasces349 (0 DX)
12 Apr 13 UTC
7 of the people in the top 100 of our ELO ratings have already professed interest, and yet nobody here seems interested.

Looks like the best webdippers are scared of us vdippers.
Halt (270 D)
13 Apr 13 UTC
Bumpity Bumpity Bump Bump

Come on Webdippers! VDip is already mobilizing the manpower for this. I think Fasces will host the tourny (in all likelihood) so I wait for him to post the rules he made on VDip.
captainmeme (1723 DMod)
13 Apr 13 UTC
Jmo said he may be able to host things on your end.
achillies27 (100 D)
13 Apr 13 UTC
I'd like to be in it, but I'm almost positive webdip won't want me representing them :)
Fasces349 (0 DX)
13 Apr 13 UTC
The rules are incomplete and we are still discussing them. I have made a post over at playdiplomacy to see if they have any interest and making this a 3-sided tournament.
Fasces349 (0 DX)
14 Apr 13 UTC
Philcore is the first person to sign up for team webdip. 11 people have stated interest on vdip.
MeepMeep (100 D)
14 Apr 13 UTC
People, it seems to me that Vdip only have 10% of the population as compare to WebDip. So, even if we beat them, there is no pride. But if Vdip, say, gets lucky and beat us? Oh man, they have the bragging right. We don't we focus on improving ourselves here instead. Just ignore the Vdip folks if they talk about us.
MeepMeep (100 D)
14 Apr 13 UTC
* typo* Why don't we focus on improving ourselves here instead.
ghug (5068 D(B))
14 Apr 13 UTC
I played on vDip back when I sucked, and it wasn't very interesting. Playing almost exclusively on the classic map gives you better ideas about board mechanics and the meaning of moves, which makes the game more about the diplomacy and less about tactics (this was not designed to be a tactical game).

If the vDippers were to agree to play only classic map, I'd join in, but otherwise, fuck that shit.
Halt (270 D)
14 Apr 13 UTC
(+2)
The plan was to play a few maps. Classic would take up a lot of the games, but a few more balanced variants would be thrown in to mix it up.

"it seems to me that Vdip only have 10% of the population as compare to WebDip." If we are to trust Fasces calculation "Which isn't that surprising, this site has approx 4 times as many players, so the # of elite players on this site should outnumber the # of elite players on vdip by about the same margin." of active players, VDip is then 25% of the WebDip.

@ghug, I agree that playing Classic gives you a good grasp of the game mechanics, and, I encourage all players new to the game to play classic 5-6 times before trying other maps.

However, to say that this was not designed to be a tactical game, in my opinion, is flawed. I have always believed that the essence of Diplomacy - and what makes it better than many other board games - is the way it weaves tactics with negotiations. This duality adds a whole new level of complexity to the game that few can match.

Additionally, even a relative novice (like me) gets used to the Classic map after a while. I have played less than 50 classic games and I think I am pretty much on par with most players already - barring the top 100 or so experts (and mostly due to a need to polish up my negotiating skills than anything else).

Variants (by this I mean the more balanced ones, like Anc Med, Modern Dip 2, and the like) add a new complexity. Unfamiliarity. The new board forces players to think on their feet, rely more on diplomacy since previous tactical knowledge from classic is less applicable.

What the variants also do is to test how well you understand the underlying tactical and diplomatic principles of the game. You cannot rely on "standard" alliances in a new variant (Juggernaut, A/I, western triple, CPA etc.). It tests how well you understand who makes a good ally, and why, based on communications and geographical location, and you then have to convince your neighbors of this based on your analysis - not the analysis of hundreds of players before you (I must have seen a guide on just about any feasible opening in Classic by now).

A player who plays Classic long enough soon memorizes the standard openings of Classic and implications, standard arguments to be used in scenarios etc etc.. But if they don't understand the key principles of the game - like how to determine when a spot is critical, or how to talk someone into doing something - then they will fail at variants.

Fasces349 (0 DX)
14 Apr 13 UTC
"If the vDippers were to agree to play only classic map, I'd join in, but otherwise, fuck that shit."
half the games would be on classic other half would be on variants. However we are considering expanding it to include playdiplomacy as well and making it a battle of the sites. If that was the case then a majority of the games would be classic, and only the ones on vdip would be variant based.

"People, it seems to me that Vdip only have 10% of the population as compare to WebDip."
Active users: 394 vs 1369

We have 29% of the population based on active users.

Also +1 Halt, well said.
ghug (5068 D(B))
14 Apr 13 UTC
"The new board forces players to think on their feet, rely more on diplomacy"
I disagree. I think that a mastery of the necessary tactics is important for smooth negotiation in a game of diplomacy. I feel like playing variants leads to people relying on their tactical prowess a bit more and feeling less need to rely on diplomacy because two good players working together won't be able to dismantle anyone in as timely of a manner. In an ideal world, your view would be the correct one, but people rely on what they know and that's just not how these things play out.

"half the games would be on classic other half would be on variants."
This gives an advantage to the vdippers, who have played all or most of the variants in question already. If vdippers claim to be better than webdippers across all variants, why not prove it on one that everyone is equally familiar with.
MeepMeep (100 D)
14 Apr 13 UTC
Look, this game is about negotiation and back-stabbing, hence the name is Diplomacy. When you guys set up a fight Vdip vs Webdip, there is no longer any negotiation. The spirit of the game is totally lost. How about back stabbing? Imagine the day a Webdip player back-stabs another Webdip player. You guys would lynch the guy right?

There, no more back-stabbing. Then what is the point of playing Diplomacy?!?
Fasces349 (0 DX)
14 Apr 13 UTC
"Imagine the day a Webdip player back-stabs another Webdip player. You guys would lynch the guy right?"
@Meepmeep: thats why the games would be anon.

"If vdippers claim to be better than webdippers across all variants, why not prove it on one that everyone is equally familiar with."
Were not claiming to be better at all variants, in any case why are you so opposed to other maps?
MeepMeep (100 D)
14 Apr 13 UTC
If you guys play chess, I can see Vchess versus Webchess. But diplomacy cannot have 1 team vs another team. Oh yeah, my diplomacy skill is so good, I can talk one of my opponent into backstabbing his/her own team. LoL.
MeepMeep (100 D)
14 Apr 13 UTC
Anon game is not sufficient to prevent the other team to cheat by calling each other up. It's a waste of time to compete with those Vdip folks.
Fasces349 (0 DX)
14 Apr 13 UTC
If you feel that way, mute this thread and let those who are interested start talking about it. We think its feasible and would very much like to organize this tournament.
MeepMeep (100 D)
14 Apr 13 UTC
Alright, fair enough, it's entirely your right and your call. I will excuse myself here.
ghug (5068 D(B))
14 Apr 13 UTC
Meep, go away, you're just being an asshole.

"Were not claiming to be better at all variants,"
What are you claiming then? Our game is a (in our opinion superior) subset of the game played on vdip, I just think it's wrong to make it half and half when our game is part of your game but yours isn't a part of ours.

"in any case why are you so opposed to other maps?"
I think it reduces the amount of diplomatic creativity and leads to games consisting entirely of (often poorly thought out) tactical battles, which is not the point of diplomacy. It's the same reason I don't like gunboat very much.
MeepMeep (100 D)
14 Apr 13 UTC
Oh gezz, I already said "I will excuse myself here", means I am leaving this thread. I am afraid if you guys have a cock-fight with those Vdip, you guys will sow unnecessary word-fight with those folks. Best is to keep the roosters away from each others. Why not just have some friendly good games, why fight?
Fasces349 (0 DX)
14 Apr 13 UTC
"I think it reduces the amount of diplomatic creativity and leads to games consisting entirely of (often poorly thought out) tactical battles, which is not the point of diplomacy. It's the same reason I don't like gunboat very much."
I think it increases it. In games that I have a lot of experience I chose alliances based on past experience.

The opening phase is more routine then actual diplomacy. We already know what the strongest alliances are, and the best openings based on those alliances. We send the messages save our desired orders wait for responses and change our orders if need be.

After that its knowing when to stab (which is more tactics then diplomacy) and convincing others to stab their allies. I would argue that playing on a well known map takes away from the diplomacy aspect, not adds too it.

Gunboat also doesn't remove the diplomatic aspect, you just have to conduct diplomacy with your units rather then words.

"Meep, go away, you're just being an asshole."
You posted that right after he said he would...

"What are you claiming then?"
We're not claiming anything. Gen. Lee posted an idea of having a tournament that includes both players from webdip and vdip.

Goldfinger0303 then claimed that webdip players are far better then vdip players. We may disagree on that, but 1 tournament isn't going to chance peoples oppinions on which site is better.

The tournament is more for fun, then actual pride (though there will be a pride element to it).
uclabb (589 D)
14 Apr 13 UTC
I'm not sure that chess is a better game than most other two player games. In fact, I am sure that in the next 15 minutes I could make up a game that is in some sense as rich as chess. The reason why chess is considered one of the ultimate intellectual challenges is exactly because everyone plays it and there is so much knowledge about it.

I essentially feel the same about classic vs. variants. Maybe some of the variants are, without any context, just as good as classic (As an aside, I am not convinced... I do think 7 is the perfect number, and I appreciate that all the powers have such a distinct flavor). But there is context. I want to play against people who understand the basic tactics so that the deeper strategy and negotiation takes over. Those who are saying that playing on the same map over and over takes away strategy are wrong- it makes the strategy less superficial.
blankflag (0 DX)
14 Apr 13 UTC
there is nothing great about 7. and classic kind of sucks. who wants to be austria or italy. one of the problems i see with chess is that it lacks chaos, so memorization is really the way to go. and when people start studying the game and memorizing things, then it really is not very fun anymore. at least for me.
uclabb (589 D)
14 Apr 13 UTC
(+2)
With all due respect, blankflag, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Dejan0707 (1608 D)
14 Apr 13 UTC
(+3)
Chess is the mother of all the games, played for thousands of years before us and hopefully would be played in the next few thousands of years.
Fasces349 (0 DX)
14 Apr 13 UTC
I seriously doubt that: chess is unique because its probably the most complex game that everyone knows how to play. However to prove the point I'll need take a step away from chess for a second and look at a similar, but far simpler game: checkers. Checkers has no luck and simple rules, it makes it easy to play, and the lack of luck makes it, in theory, a game for intellectuals. However there are no pro-checkers games. The biggest difference between checkers and chess intellectually isn't the simpler rules, but that pro-checkers is unwinnable. There is a series of moves, where you can employ the exact same opening strategy and you only need slight variations after that based on your opponents moves to make you unbeatable. If you play the right strategy the best your opponent can do is draw with you. If two players are smart enough and have played enough games, the game will end in a draw.

Chess isn't there yet. The first few moves are normally identical game to game, however after 3 or 4 moves, there isn't one statistically superior move, every other move has a counter and its all about out smarting your opponent. This is what makes chess so special, there is no unbeatable strategy, and there probably never will be (given how many pro-chess games there are every year). Some strategies fair better then others, but the same move will only beat so many opponents before someone counters it. Prochess games aren't what blanflag thinks they are, because you have to adapt your strategy and you have to be creative and unpredictable, as well as calculating of possible moves, which does require some memorization.

So the question is, is diplomacy more like chess or more like checkers? Its more comparable to chess, which granted is the argument you make. But that's because of two reasons:
1. The diplomacy element. Every game is different because different people make different alliances for different reasons. There are statistically strong alliances, alliances that fair better then others. The Juggernaut, and how it use to dominate play, is a good example of this.

A really talented Austria-Italy can stop a juggernaut by itself, but normally it doesn't have too because Germany and or England will attack Russia whenever there is a juggernaut. However Austria when facing a Juggernaut, assuming diplomacy isn't an option wins or loses not based on what is statistically the smartest move but based on:

2. Simultaneous turns: As Russia you have an army in Galicia, Austria has an army in Budapest and no other armies near by. As Austria do you bounce him in Vienna or hold in Budapest. As Russia do you move to Vienna or Budapest? Predicting where your enemy is going to move means there is no perfect choice.

Some players look at what is the statistically smartest move for their opponent, and assume thats what they'll do. Others assume their opponent will do the opposite, others flip a coin, others look at past moves from their opponent to look at patterns. Others may have some other method of deciding 50-50 choices that I am unaware of.

This aspect is what makes every game unique, its not like chess or checkers where you can't react to a players moves because the moves happen when your moves do.

Simultaneous turns also means that you can't tell whether or not someone promising a support is lying or not, it means a lot of things, this was just the easiest one to explain.



It is those two differences that makes every diplomacy game unique, not the fact that its like chess in which there is no 'smartest' strategy.

Diplomacy has stalemate lines, and every pro-player, when losing a game, has a clear vision as to which of them are attainable and which are not. I'm not saying stalemate lines are absent from variants, and nor should they be, but its a hard truth that in diplomacy there is such thing as a perfect strategy (the simultaneous turns is more tactics), while in chess there isn't.





Now here is the main reason I disagree that chess is the perfect example for intellectuals; ultimately blankflag is right (I will almost never say this). Chess, experience matters a lot but at the end of the day your just repeating the same game (black vs white) over and over again, looking at different outcomes. There are no do overs in real life and two armies are never employed identically across two battles.

The problem with chess and diplomacy is ultimately you've been in that when your tactics in diplomacy or chess are based mostly on experience (which every good chess player and dip player uses, past experience to help dictate their moves) is unrealistic. There are no other variables which is a problem.

A good strategist would be able to pick up a new variant and come up with a semi-decent strategy for each country, in light that in real life he would come up with multiple situations none of them identical. At the end of the day its a same game, the rules are the same, outcomes in each conflict are determined by the same factors, what changes in the map and therefore what the optimal strategies are.

Like in second time I played as Harold in a gunboat of the 1066 variant, I chose too rather then counter Haralds army in York, convoy my armies into Normandy. I banked on the fact that I could conquer Normandy before Harald could conquer England. This was a fog of war variant, so I relied on the fact that Harald would have no idea I had only 1 unit on the isle. That strategy had never been tried before, and I had no idea whether or not it would work, I just knew that if I fought Harald in the North, William would land armies in the South and either I would lose to William or fight a war on 2 fronts.

Like playing Known World 901, and in light of the Russian-Spanish-Denmark-French alliance that had all the map except for Asia, trying to find stalemate lines on your own, rather then rely on past experience to know them. Then, realizing no such line exists, you try to convince France (who is entering all holds at this point waiting for a 4-way draw) to stab Russia by convincing him you have a line that doesn't exist, and again, him believing you due to lack of experience.

Like in playing Africa for the first time, explaining to Nigeria why Morocco has the strongest starting position and you need to work together to stop him. (Morocco now has more solos then all the other countries combined on that set up, btw)

The advantage of playing variants is that you can't completely rely on experience, you have to be able to adapt your strategy, find the advantages and disadvantages of your country and conduct your opening diplomacy and moves based on what you think will work, not based on knowing it will work, which is what you see in Diplomacy.

This is why I enjoy variants, it adds a new variable that keeps us on our feet, since we have to analyze the game without fully knowing potential outcomes.

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56 replies
twinsnation (503 D(B))
14 Apr 13 UTC
vite 2 needs one player
game starts in 5 minutes one more required
0 replies
Open
bo_sox48 (5202 DMod(G))
13 Apr 13 UTC
(+1)
Corée du Nord (That means North Korea)
A statement I heard today:

52 replies
Open
blankflag (0 DX)
14 Apr 13 UTC
The Problem of Money
I just jumped from being in the 15th percentile of wealth to 5th because of some market shorting - that was because of luck mostly.
18 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 DX)
14 Apr 13 UTC
MODS - Game stuck
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=111195

Loading order...
2 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
13 Apr 13 UTC
The Future of Tournaments webDip
As webDip grows, we need to relook at some of our old policies. The Mods have decided that it's time we rethink how Tournaments are done. I'm currently sitting in while most of the Mods are away, so I figured I'd get the community's input now, for them to consider when they get back.
63 replies
Open
dannysparkes (397 D)
12 Apr 13 UTC
(+1)
V Web diplomacy ego's
When the site went down last night i signed up to the v web diplomacy site and checked the forum and one thread suggests that the players in the top forty are better than the top 400 here. What a bunch of tosh they are really up on themselves :(
53 replies
Open
Halt (270 D)
13 Apr 13 UTC
The Problem of Points
I just jumped from 15% to 5% because of a gunboat game - that was won because of luck mostly.
15 replies
Open
steephie22 (182 D(S))
13 Apr 13 UTC
Just came up with an opening for Italy I've never heard anyone about...
It probably has been discussed/done before but I don't think I ever heard/saw it...
Ven-Tyr, Rome-Nap, Nap-Ion.

It's not really offensive at all to Austria and it leaves open a load of possibilities... What do you think?
25 replies
Open
Dharmaton (2398 D)
13 Apr 13 UTC
Circle Triangle Square
Aïkido concepts in the strategies of Diplomacy play.
9 replies
Open
JoSo (291 D)
12 Apr 13 UTC
Has anyone seen a game glitch like this;
Newly built fleet in Moscow in World version of game, can not move to Ukraine or Arminia, can not support to hold anything, can support to move only units going to Black Sea. It's as if Black Sea is the only recognized adjacent area. by can not I mean drop down menus of locations only have Black Sea or are blank. Nothing currently in the Black Sea.
4 replies
Open
Tagger (129 D)
13 Apr 13 UTC
How do i set up a tournament?
How do i set up a tournament?
4 replies
Open
Jamiet99uk (808 D)
12 Apr 13 UTC
Thatcher's Funeral
Since the "Maggie Thatcher Dead at 87" thread has turned into a debate about the IRA specifically, I wanted to voice my opinion about a seperate issue relating to Mrs. Thatcher's death.
15 replies
Open
semck83 (229 D(B))
08 Apr 13 UTC
(+1)
Maggie Thatcher Dead at 87
http://news.sky.com/story/1075292/margaret-thatcher-dies-after-stroke
145 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 DX)
11 Apr 13 UTC
Art variant
You may only speak to other players through a piece of art of your choosing posted to the forum
7 replies
Open
blankflag (0 DX)
13 Apr 13 UTC
adam gadahn, seriously?
as low as my credibility for the cia and corporate media are, how was adam gadahn on msnbc? american must be the joke of intelligent people everywhere at this point.
2 replies
Open
SplitDiplomat (101466 D)
12 Apr 13 UTC
Is this the new web dip record?
Is this the fastest solo on web dip ever?
gameID=114948 just finished,very interesting game,congrats to the winner!
37 replies
Open
Yonni (136 D(S))
11 Apr 13 UTC
(+1)
Creating an EOG periodical
I got the thought that it may be nice to create a collection of some of the sites best EOGs. I figure that people could point me in the direction of some of their favourites. I could give them a quick edit (to conform their styles at least) and then release them periodically as a collection. Ultimately, it would be cool to have them stored on a navigatable website. This is just a thought though so all action, of course, is pension my laziness.
8 replies
Open
NigeeBaby (100 D(G))
11 Apr 13 UTC
Does anybody here really understand 'Quantum Theory'?
Do you?
87 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
13 Apr 13 UTC
Mall shooting announce before hand on 4chan
Well, this is rather horrific...

http://gawker.com/5994549/the-virginia-mall-shooting-was-announced-in-advance-on-4chan
1 reply
Open
Bob Genghiskhan (1233 D)
10 Apr 13 UTC
Want Turkish fleets in the Tyrrhenian Sea?
An object lesson in why the Crusher is a poor gunboat opening for Italy.

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=114834
15 replies
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
11 Apr 13 UTC
The non-variant series...
I am thinking of starting a new series (passworded) wherein the buy-in is irrelavent because the points at the end of the game go back to the original polayers and the winner/drawees get nothing extra. This would eliminate the PPSC vs. WTA arguments and their issues as it wouldn't matter (although it would still affect GR, nothing I can do about that).

Anyone up for trying this out?
61 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
12 Apr 13 UTC
FACE TO FACE DIPLOMACY TOURNAMENT SIGNUP
Come on guys!
https://sites.google.com/site/boroughsdiplomacy/
Register at [email protected]
May 18-19
2 replies
Open
datapolitical (100 D)
11 Apr 13 UTC
My favorite war is...
I would like to say WW2 because its the war I've read the most about. But tbh it's the Six Day War. A small country dominating a much larger enemy through superior tactics. How can a diplomacy player not love that!
36 replies
Open
SYnapse (0 DX)
10 Apr 13 UTC
Huxley or Darwin?
Frans de Waal describes two conflicting ideas of evolutionary ethics, Darwin’s “evolution of ethics” and Huxley’s “veneer theory.”
24 replies
Open
erist (228 D(B))
12 Apr 13 UTC
Press tactics
What tactics do you use in your press to sow dissent, confirm rumors, get other people to move the way you want them too, etc?
4 replies
Open
datapolitical (100 D)
12 Apr 13 UTC
Google plus hangout game?
So who's interested in a public press live game on google plus? (obviously it'd be gunboat on the site, because all communication would be done over video chat). We could broadcast the game so observers could see the conversation in real time.

I'm thinking 10 minutes per turn, Sunday afternoon at around 2PM PST.
How does that sound?
27 replies
Open
Lando Calrissian (100 D(S))
12 Apr 13 UTC
MASTERS TOURNAMENT
Weirsy and Couples, the two biggest beauties on tour.
3 replies
Open
FlemGem (1297 D)
31 Mar 13 UTC
(+1)
Grant or Lee
Who was the better general? Discuss.....
109 replies
Open
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