there are a finite number of openings, so they've all been discussed/analuzed at some point

to me, this opening is a split between a lepanto and an assault on munnich/austria that would result from opening ven-tyr, rom-ven

my question is thia : what is your purpose in sending ven-tyr?
this off balances austria, and as such hinders him : bad if you are an ally for him, as you would be if using the lepanto in the south
it offers a shot at munich, but thats a waste as you have no extra army support for nex year
its too weak to attack austria, so not very good if you are his enemy...

seems to me if you are working with or against austria, this is not the best opening
if you aren't sure and want to keep him (and the rest of the board) guessing, seems like a solid opening

What's the purpose of this opening? Ven-Tyl will antagonize Austria and Germany while not actually moving enough force in their direction to get anything done, as well as leave Venice open to Austrian treach.

Naples has nowhere to go unless it's convoyed, in which case Apulia makes more sense so you can build in Naples later if the convoy doesn't happen.

The way I figure it, if you're cooperating with France from the opening, you're rolling anti-Austria anyway.

Apulia is indeed better than Naples I suppose...

Other than that, the idea is that this is a more progressive way without really offending anyone than just sitting around...

So a progressive way of being passive... So basically you're still passive, but when you decide to attack you actually can...
A forward defence could be another way to call it...

If you think about it, Austria is normally suicidal if he attacks Venice, so there's no reason to not move it forward, and Piedmont is quite committing so Tyrolia seems like an obvious choice... It's not that much more offensive to Austria compared to staying in Venice, and, well, Germany can't really hurt you when you're in Piedmont. You can also react on an attack from France or Austria if needed.

Not to mention you can convoy or move to Tunis, after which you've got 4 units who are pretty much in position to attack France, Austria or Turkey...

So any other thoughts after this further explanation?

F Nap - Apu, A Ven - Tus, A Rom - Nap what are your thoughts

A Ven - Tus seems pointless to me...
Why would you do that?
Also A Rom - Nap should probably be Apu, although that doesn't matter too much...

"The way I figure it, if you're cooperating with France from the opening, you're rolling anti-Austria anyway."

Not at all. If you cooperate with France and Austria in the opening, you're abating the possibility of a WT while also getting Austrian help against a juggernaut. If there's no juggernaut, you get three centers in Turkey. Your best bet without being overaggressive would be to cooperate with both France and Austria, avoiding a useless, never-ending fight with France while also keeping up with Austria's (or the juggernaut's) growth.

If you're going to open against France, open A Ven - Pie, A Rom - Apu, F Nap - ION. If you're going to open against Austria, you can either open A Ven - Tyr/A Tyr - Boh, A Rom - Ven/A Ven - Tyr, army in Venice in builds or you can open A Ven - Tri. If you're going to open against Turkey, you can open A Ven H, A Rom - Apu, F Nap - ION. Those are your options. The others do you no good.

Steephie, I like the idea, but I think it would only work if a certain type of person is playing as Austria. Someone who is inexperienced might take it as aggression, or blindly accept that you're still on their side. On the other hand, a more experience player might be open to considering your alternative methods, but could very likely return defensively out of fear, putting him in a bad starting position for a potential ally.

I do think that this would be a great maneuver to distract Austria while Turkey and Russia close in, but Turkey and Russia aren't always the best allies for Italy. I think this method should be explored using different scenarios; try warning Austria first and ask for his permission, see if the result gives you a better position for an attack against Austria compared to an alliance with Austria, and I'd really be interested in seeing how this connects the Eastern side of the board to the Western side. France would be more concerned with Austria's position, and Germany would be very concerned about his Southern border. I enjoy seeing games where a risky or untraditional starting occurs that offsets the typical progression of games. I'd like to suggest starting a game with the intention of exploring this move, but that would defeat the purpose of using an alternative maneuver...

So mine is no good? Why not?

That was to bo_sox, reading KA's post now...

It's going to get you an unnecessary enemy in Germany (and maybe Austria if he's sensitive). It could also quickly strain relations with Austria in any gunboat setting if he elects to open F Tri - Ven as a courtesy tap (I sometimes do in non-anon, and as much as you may think it's dumb, it has its purposes) because they will enter Venice and screw up your convoy, all while pissing him off. If you're going to use that opening, do it in a non-sensitive press setting if at all.

The only reason I would use that opening is if I have a lot of trust in France and would be willing to give or receive support into Munich in 1901. Other than that, I wouldn't do it.

KA, for sake of simplicity, act like it's a gunboat. So everybody treats you by your actions, not your words.

About Austria: first of all, I don't think A Tyr is that much more risky than A Venice for Austria... And even if Austria gets into a bad position because he returns defensively you just don't choose him as an ally... Because of the opening that shouldn't be too bad...

That was to KA, reading bo_sox's post now :P

My favorite temporizing opening as Italy is the Alpine Chicken (Ven-Pie, Rom-Ven, Nap-Ion) precisely because Ven-Pie isn't as big a commitment as it seems. Don't forget, Pie borders Tyl.

Armies in Ven and Pie seal up the land route into Italy completely. It also allows Italy to run a column Pie-Mar, Ven-Pie, or Ven-Tri, Pie-Ven. Or even better, Pie-Tyl, Ven-Tri.

In my experience, the Lepanto is a sucker bet and there's little reason to leave an option open for it.

The Chicken also gives Italy its only theoretical shot at three builds in Winter '01. :D

At Italy that opens to tyrolia is offensive to me as Austria. Not worth ticking ppl off.

LEPANTO, TYROLIAN VARIATION
The order A Ven-Tyr is favored in many quarters, as it is is positive and powerful. It allows A Tyr-Mun if there is an Anglo-German alliance threatening France. This will bolster the French defense and help keep the West stalemated. A Ven-Tyr may also stand off a German sneak attack from Munich. It also gives the possibility of A Tyr-Boh (and thence to Gal), adding to Austria's defensive line if this is necessary.

That's great if you totally trust Austria not to invade you the second he needs a new target.

I wanted to give it a few minutes for people to think those were my thoughts ... but they weren't.

Any time you think you have an new oopening, you should go here and check it out:
http://www.diplom.org/Online/Openings/interactive.html

It was obvious enough that you were quoting the openings library that I didn't feel the need to point it out.

It was for my own entertainment, not yours. But while it might have been obvious to you, I'm sure there are those who haven't seen that site yet, and my real point was to give steephie and others the link. I just like to have fun sometimes before being useful :-)

I don't feel like reading a lot of texts honestly, so I doubt I'll ever use that link. I jsut wanted to hear some opinions etc.

They aren't long, the one I copied here was pretty typical. Plus its interactive. Check it out at least once before dismissing it.

And really, they are just other peoples opinions ... People who have been playing the game longer than some of us have been alive.

First thing that struck me was the proposed opening's similarity to the Go Fasta opening (http://www.diplom.org/Zine/F1997M/Bergman/Italy.html). Rom-Apu is a little more flexible than Rom-Nap and doesn't block Nap in the event you decide to do something other than convoy. But otherwise, all the justification for the Go Fasta opening moves could apply to steephie's moves.

I've opened Ven-Tus before. It's a defensive move signaling peace with both France and Austria (and therefore probably means trouble for Turkey). It was part of an S01 deal with Austria to DMZ Ven and Tri. As I recall, I think I ordered Ven-Tus, Rom-Apu, Nap-Ion.

Assuming AI both follow through on the DMZ, the unit in Tus is not an immediate threat to move to Tyr or Tri. At the same time, it is in good position to protect Italy against attack by France or Austria -- neither of which are probably going to happen at this early stage.