YES!

If the Niners couldn't win it, I'll take my grandfather's G-Men while he's still alive to see them win!

And suck it, Brady...two shots, two tries, you can't top Manning...

And MONTANA! IS! STILL! KING!

Manningham should be MVP.

God I was so nervous in that last two minutes. Belichek should have called a time out much, much sooner. Didn't give Brady enough time.

But WE WONNNNNN

How the fuck does NE drop 2 passes in a row with 40ish seconds on the clock?
Also that flagged play was bullshit, clock kept running down while the play was being flagged, clock should have stopped then and there....

I agree about the flagged play. That was ridiculous. If all that happens is that you lose 5 yards, I would put 15 men on the field every play down the stretch.

I thought the MVP should've gone to Bradshaw or, even better, a player on the Giants' D (or even the whole Defense, come on!)

But whatever...

two HUGE drops for the Pats on that last drive...wow.

And Gronk ALMOST catches the Hail Mary at the end of the game..not quick enough...would he have been a touch quicker if not for the ankle injury?

But who cares...TWICE AS NICE!

I don't want to HEAR IT about Brady being #1...

Montana, 4-0, blowouts and close games, TDs to win SBs, Brady can't do it without Vinatieri and that old Rodney Harrison/Tedy Bruschi/Ty Law defense helping him out.

Top 5, but not #1:

Montana or Elway at #1, and of course, as a Niners fan, I say That Not-So-Ordinary Joe.

But how about Eli???

2 SB wins, and still young...COULD he be better than his brother?

I agree on that flag calling play too. Ticked off too many seconds. They also ticked off two more than they should have on that last spike.

Still, I'll give a hats off to Tom Brady. Nobody has done more with less talent than he has. Manning has some great great receivers, but Brady pretty much has Welker at WR

"Nobody has done more with less talent than he has. Manning has some great great receivers, but Brady pretty much has Welker at WR"

Gronkowski? Branch? Hernandez? Ocho Cinco?

^See, I don't buy the "more with less" argument with Brady...

He had a great coach, a GREAT defense, and the best kicker of all time in his SB-winning years...

All he "lacked" was "great" WRs, and...well...

Montana won his first SB with just with Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon--

Are they REALLY better than Deion Branch, Wes Welker, Randy Moss, David Patten...?

Montana didn't have roger Craig in his first go, either, so you can't say Brady was stiffed on the run game...Kevin Faulk and Corey Dillon, not bad at all, better than Montana his first time around...



To me, ELWAY is the one who did the most with the least:

5 SB trips, no real elite WRs (his best were McCaffrey, Rod Smith and Sharpe at TE, not exactly Rice/Irvin/Swann/Stallworth material there) and he didn't have Terrell Davis until his last two, the ones he won...

To me, the QB debate comes down to Montana or Elway, and they're about even...Montana has the edge if you take dynasties and wins, Elway if you take comebacks and more-with-less.

Brady's Top 5...

I go:

1. Montana
2. Elway
3. Brady
4. Favre
5. Peyton/Unitas (if we're allowed pre-SB stats, Unitas, if it's just the SB era, Peyton.)

And some mix of Marino, Staubach, Aikman, Peyton/Unitas (whichever doesn't take #5) and then it's a toss-up for #10:

I could see it going to Tarkenton, Bradshaw, Steve Young, or Kurt Warner...Eli's ALMOST there, one or two more good seasons...

Warren Moon would be my best "black" QB, just behind Young/Warner/Eli (nothing with the race, he just never got to a SB.)

And then I'd go Jim Kelly after THAT...

But I could go all night like this. :)

Shut up about Montana. Montana benefited from a loaded team with no salary cap.

Brady=Best QB EVER!

Yeah, both those drops with 40 seconds left were right to the players, it wasn't Brady's fault that they lost.

@ Putin - I said at WR, Gronk and Hernandez are great. Branch and Ocho Cinco are waaaay past their prime. how many passes were thrown to them this whole post season? Ocho Cinco had one thrown his way all game, I think, and it's not because the Giants were putting a lot of pressure on him the whole game

@Putin:

And, of course, a loaded team with no salary cap shows the evils of capitalism at work in the NFL, we need parity, redistribution of talent and revenue until all teams are 8-8!

Naw...I kid this time, Putin, for once, not looking for the political fight, and I don't think you're starting one, anyway...

But, on a FOOTBALL note:

Wrong.

SB XVI, here is Joe Montana's team:
WR: Freddie Solomon
T: Dan Audick
G: John Ayers
C: Fred Quillan
G Randy Cross
T: Keith Fahnhorst
TE: Charle Young
WR: Dwight Clark
RB: Earl Cooper
RB: Ricky Patton

Does that sound like a "loaded" team to you?

Montana won WITH stars, and won without.
Brady won WITH Vinatieri...and hasn't won without.

4-for-4 (and 11-0 TD/INT in the SB) says it all.

Montana is KING...really, I'd say ONLY Elway has an argument, for TRULY doing it all on his own--5 SB appearances, 3 with a shitty coach, a hit-and-miss defense, and not exactly a world-beater of an offense.

By the way, just in case any one at home is keeping score...

49er Pro Bowlers on that 1981, SB XVI Championship team:

ZERO.

So, that's right...technically, BRADY--and Eli--won their SBs with a more "loaded" team than Montana did that first time.

Try again, Putin...

@Obi: So if Montana is so good, why wasn't he in that proball your talking about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XVI
The 49ers were the FAVOURITE to win that game your talking about...

"receivers Dwight Clark (85 receptions, 1,104 yards, and 4 touchdowns) and Freddie Solomon (59 receptions, 969 yards, and 8 touchdowns). Running back Ricky Patton was the top rusher on the team with 543 yards and 4 touchdowns, while also catching 27 passes for 195 yards. Multi-talented running back Earl Cooper also provided the team with a good running and receiving threat, rushing for 330 yards and catching 51 passes for 477 yards. Much of San Francisco's success was aided by their offensive line, which featured Dan Audick (LT), John Ayers (LG), Fred Quillan (C), Randy Cross (RG), and Keith Fahnhorst (RT).
Although the 49ers had 3 rookies starting as defensive backs, they all were major defensive threats: Carlton Williamson recorded 4 interceptions, Eric Wright had 3, and Ronnie Lott recorded 7 interceptions and tied an NFL record by returning 3 of them for touchdowns. Three-year veteran defensive back Dwight Hicks led the team with 9 interceptions, which he returned for 239 yards and a touchdown, giving the secondary a total of 23. Defensive end Fred Dean and linebacker Jack "Hacksaw" Reynolds were big contributors up front, making it difficult for the opposing teams to rush the ball; Dean became a 49er after an in-season trade with the San Diego Chargers and piled up 12 sacks for San Francisco."

Thats hardly a weak team...

"49er Pro Bowlers on that 1981, SB XVI Championship team:

ZERO."

Um...Ronnie Lott, Dwight Hicks, Randy Cross, Dwight Clark, and Joe Montana.

That's 5 pro-bowlers.

# of pro-bowlers on the NY Giants this year? 2. Manning & Pierre-Paul.

Try again, Obi.

The 49er defense only let up 20+ points in 3 games. I count 7 games where the 49er offense didn't score at least 20, so it's quite obvious the defense carried them that year.

"So if Montana is so good, why wasn't he in that proball your talking about?"

4-for-4 in SBs.
11 TDs in the SB.
0 INTs in the SB.
Most TD passes (5) in a SB (Steve Young broke it with 6, still a 49er record)
16 posteason wins...most all-time (now tied with Brady there)
128 passer rating in SBs (again, highest ever...no one's even CLOSE)
3x SB MVP (Tied most all-time with Terry Bradshaw for that honor...Brady has 2)
8x Pro Bowler (Including 1981, so a foul-up there, but Brady was in too, so, still...)
2x Regular Season MVP (again, tied with Brady, who has two...not the record, 3 is)
Named to NFL 75th-Annivarsay Team (Other QBs on list--Baugh, Otto Graham, Johnny U)
NFL Hall of Famer (Obviously...Brady will be too)
Played in an era of more defense than Brady
Played without as many QB-protecting rules as Brady has
The 1981 team's leading rusher had 543 YDs...HARDLY ground-breaking
Defeated John Elway in SB XXIV 55-10, again, biggest SB blowout, 45
QBs Montana beat in SBs--Kenny Anderson, Marino (HOF), Esiason, Elway (HOF)
QBs Brady beat in SBs--Kurt Warner (likely HOF), Jake Delhomme, McNabb
Montana never lost to the same QB in the playoffs twice
Brady just HAS lost to the same QB in the playoffs--IN THE SB--twice
Most games with a 120+ passer rating (tied with Favre, P. Manning, Warner, no Brady)
Most TDs in the redzone in the playoffs (32, ahead of Brady again...)
Most consecutive playoff games with 2+ TD passes (w/ Bradshaw and Brees...no Brady)
Most consecutive road wins in the playoffs (19, next closest--Eli, with 10)
Montana was a more mobile QB, rushing out of the pocket in a way Brady doesn't
Montana was a more accurate QB in the clutch (again--11 TDs, *0* INTs in 4 SB games)

For starters.

Not a lot for stats, but wins count a LOT...and as you can see...

No one was better, with the help and without, on the road or at home, than Montana.

"
Um...Ronnie Lott, Dwight Hicks, Randy Cross, Dwight Clark, and Joe Montana.

That's 5 pro-bowlers.

# of pro-bowlers on the NY Giants this year? 2. Manning & Pierre-Paul.

Try again, Obi."

Yeah, I know I fouled that one up...I was using an NFL reference, and it didn't list SF's players for some reason (maybe I looked at the wrong year.)

Oh well.

Not my main argument, anyway.

"The 49er defense only let up 20+ points in 3 games. I count 7 games where the 49er offense didn't score at least 20, so it's quite obvious the defense carried them that year."

Joe Montana in SB XVI:

157 YDs and a TD, a rushing TD--to account for 14 of SF's 26 --and again...

ZERO INTERCEPTIONS.

I'd say Joe's orchestrating the offense played a good role, too...oh!

And, lest we forget...

MONTANA'S SIGNATURE MOMENT:

The Catch, one of the greatest and most iconic plays in NFL history, a deadly accurate pass to a leaping Clarck, hitting him perfectly to down the Dynasty Dally Cowboys and start the 49ers' Dynasty.

BRADY'S SIGNATURE MOMENT:

Was it...

Famously NOT fumbling (so they said) in The Tuck Rule Game?
Moving into FG range so VINATIERI could tie it in The Tuck Rule Game?
Moving into FG range so VINATIERI could win it in The Tuck Rule Game?
Moving into FG range so VINATIERI could win it in SB XXXVI?
Moving into FG range so VINATIERI could win it in SB XXXVIII?
"We're only going to score 17 ? Haha...OK." Final Score: NYG--17 NE: 14?
SACKED to end the Patriots' hopes in SB XLII?
SACKED to end the Patriots' hopes tonight?

Which is it?

Seems to me, either someone saved the day for Brady after he didn't go the distance, he was an arrogant jerk who got his ass handed to him in the greatest upset since Joe Namath, OR...Brady sitting on his ass after watching Eli--once, and now TWICE--show him he's not The Golden Boy after all.

"Not my main argument, anyway."

Ok, well the 1984 team had 5 pro-bowlers on offense alone. The entire secondary were pro-bowlers too.

The 1989 team was the most loaded team in history.

And I'm not ARGUING that, am I?

I said he won WITH loaded teams and WITHOUT.

11989=with, 1981=without.

His 1981 team is about on par with Brady's...and, lest we forget:

1981--Montana earns his way in with The Catch
2001--Brady lucks his way in with The Tuck Rule

Am Obi, even after that sack the Pats had a chance, they lost due to that flag taking up 14 seconds when the clock shouldn't have been running.

And had Gronk not been injured he could have easily gotten to and caught that hail mary at the end.

As for Brady's iconic moments;
Was his record shattering 50 touch downs in a single year not impressive?
Was his 3 super bowls in 4 years not impressive?
Unlike Montana he didn't need an iconic moment, since he was consistently good.

@1981: A team with 5 pro-bowlers is a weak team....
@2001: Luck? (granted I didn't watch the game), it was fairly ruled under NFL rules.

"Am Obi, even after that sack the Pats had a chance, they lost due to that flag taking up 14 seconds when the clock shouldn't have been running.

And had Gronk not been injured he could have easily gotten to and caught that hail mary at the end."

And if Ted Ginn hadn't sprained his knee, Kyle Williams wouldn't have fumbled the 49ers OUT of the Super Bowl.

Coulda, woulda shoulda...

"As for Brady's iconic moments;
Was his record shattering 50 touch downs in a single year not impressive?
Was his 3 super bowls in 4 years not impressive?
Unlike Montana he didn't need an iconic moment, since he was consistently good."

-I said MOMENT...50 TDs are 50 moments?
-Yes, 3-in-4 is good, but Aikman already did that...and Bradshaw (And MONTANA) did better
-Are you REALLY going to say Montana wasn't "consistently good?"

2 MVPs, 8 Pro Bowls, 3 SB MVPs, 11-0 TD/INT in SBs, best playoff record on the road, most playoff wins on the road, lead his team to the NFC/AFC Championship 7 times (counting one with the CHIEFS, if you want to talk about more-with-less, he almost took the CHIEFS to the Super Bowl with practically nothing on his side)...

273 TDs...92 career passer rating...

You're REALLY going to say Joe Montana wasn't "consistent?"

Are you going to try to double down and argue Babe Ruth was a bad power hitter, too?

"@1981: A team with 5 pro-bowlers is a weak team....
@2001: Luck? (granted I didn't watch the game), it was fairly ruled under NFL rules."

-Yeah, sort of my point, Montana won with great teams--1989--and weaker ones, like 1981
-Well, we've never seen that rule called before, and almost never since...sort of like Bradshaw's not-fumble in the NFC Championship Game:

Maybe it was legal, but it didn't feel in the "spirit of the game," plays like that all year went the other way, and it "felt" wrong and iffy...

The Tuck Rule--not exactly a moment of playoff glory
The Catch--one of the most glorious moments in playoff history

OH!

And the 50 TD season?

BRADY LOST THAT SUPER BOWL...

Stats are all well and good...

But 4-and-0 and ZERO INTERCEPTIONS (costly one for Brady this game) says it all.

@obi,

"...best playoff record on the road, most playoff wins on the road..."

If he was so good, why were they playing their playoff games on the road so often? :-P

Sorry, had to.

Because the NFC was just so damn good in the 1980s...

But hey--as they nearly-always won--19 consecutive playoff road wins by Montana--who cares?

;)

How many consecutive playoff road wins does Eli have now?
I think 7...so he's on his way there!
:)

How is 5 pro-bowlers not a loaded team?

"-I said MOMENT...50 TDs are 50 moments?"
As I said, he doesn't need one iconic moment since he played well every game. All his moments are golden, he doesn't need just one.

"157 YDs and a TD, a rushing TD--to account for 14 of SF's 26 --and again...

ZERO INTERCEPTIONS."
Gronks injury allowed that interception last night, Brady got more Touchdowns and more Yards last night then those stats...

'2 MVPs, 8 Pro Bowls, 3 SB MVPs, 11-0 TD/INT in SBs, best playoff record on the road, most playoff wins on the road, lead his team to the NFC/AFC Championship 7 times (counting one with the CHIEFS, if you want to talk about more-with-less, he almost took the CHIEFS to the Super Bowl with practically nothing on his side)..."
7 pro-bowls and 2 mvps...
HOWEVER Brady has played 4 less seasons, if Brady gets another 2 pro-bowls (which he probably will) and another mvp (which he might) he has upped Montana here....

"273 TDs...92 career passer rating..."
300 TDs and a 96 pass rating, I would rather those. On top of that Montana has 139 interceptions to Brady's 115. Again Brady has better stats.

AND those stats are in 31 LESS games, give Brady 31 more games, and he needs 600 yards or 20 yards a game (which is like guarenteed) to beat Montana on yards.

Brady averages more Yards Per game (248 vs 211), Touchdowns per game (1.86 vs 1.42), higher completion percentage (63.8 vs 63.2) and less interceptions per game (0.71 vs 0.72)

The only difference is, Montana had stacked teams that allowed him to win an additional superbowl HOWEVER Brady has been in the superbowl more frequently.

Brady has been started QB for 10 seasons, and gotten to the superbowl 5 of them.
Montana was starting QB for 14 seasons and got to the superbowl in 4 of them.

Give Brady 4 more years and can he get an addiontal superbowl? Yes. The argeument that Montana had more clutch and won the big game while Brady lost it is invalid because:
1. At least Brady got to the big game.
2. Watch the game, Brady played well (he broke the record of most completed passes in a row in a superbowl game) it was his teammates (Gronk's injury made Gronk play like shit) that cost the game (New York fumbles 4 times in the last quater, each time it is recovered. Another fumble New England recovers it, but the play is flagged. Many drops in dying minutes of games from perfect passes by Brady)

More later I have to go