There's only a handful of states that go out of their way to preserve what wildlife they have left and I was under the impression that Oregon was one of them, but maybe you know more about that than I do.

I was kidding, but like many places, Oregon is divided. Back in the day it was spotted owls versus the logging industry, these days its ranchers versus wolves. And, I would dare say, inasmuch as every political movement has its crazies, the Bundies are bat-shit. They are militant believers in public lands being welfare for ranchers.

Terrorists.

I think bo is trolling again. It's hard to tell when he's trolling, because he's so damn polite.

If you think I'm polite, you've never met me.

Why are they militants and not terrorists?

The lack of terror is a bit of a giveaway, surely? From what I've seen all they have done is to occupy an empty government building.

I don't care if it is empty. They are armed, inciting a shootout with the federal government (in which they'll become free target practice), and terrorizing the workers and visitors of the reserve. They are doing so in the name of God according to Asshole Bundy, son of Cuntface Bundy. They are ready and willing to kill anyone that tries to remove them. I don't know what else you need to do to be branded terrorist.

Sure, if they really want to be terrorists, they'll probably want to kill some people, or at least blow something up. Or poison a buffet with salmonella. At least.

and, no one is visiting Burns this time of year. Trust me.

It's probably cold.

I didn't know terrorism required murdering people. I'm glad they haven't. The threat of them being there and being ready to fight federal forces the way that they are is the terrorizing aspect.

I didn't say it _required_ killing. I also suggested blowing up things or poisoning random people, a la Rashnishpiram. You basically have to try to terrorize the populace. But, I'm pretty sure no one in Burns gives a shit.

Next thing you know, Bo is going to be saying Obama's drone strikes are a form of terrorism. Haha. Kids say the darndest things.

People in Burns aren't exactly happy about the situation:
http://www.ktvz.com/news/militia-takes-over-wildlife-refuge-hq-after-peaceful-burns-protest/37227522

But also, fuck mandatory minimums. (Then again, fuck poaching and arson.)
http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison

It depends who you are killing with drones, dirge.

The US government has certainly been guilty of terrorism on many occasions.

Personally, dirge, I stay out of the drone strikes conversation simply because I am embarrassed to have to have it.

Do you think that having armed ranchers taking over government buildings in your town is something to not give a shit about?

Bo, they are not terrorizing the employees or visitors, as the place was *closed* nor are they putting anyone in danger as they repeatedly said that they would not shoot *anyone* unless they are shot at. While this is clearly illegal, I would not go so far as to call it terrorism.

If it was the start of a rancher rampage, certainly. However, no one is in imminent danger, there are no hostages, and there are no signs whatsoever that the ranchers intend to do anything other than stay put. In terms of risk to the public, it ranks as less concerning than someone breaking the speed limit.

That was to bo, by the way. Also, I really like the phrase "rancher rampage" and will try and use it more often in conversation :).

Bo, terrorism is the use of violence or the threat of violence for political purposes. These people are not trying to hurt anyone - have not taken hostages, will not shoot on sight, etc. They've only stated that they will resist if forcibly removed. In my books, that doesn't fall under terrorism.

Now, if you're serious about rooting out hypocrisy in the use of the word "terrorism," start with Putin, then take a good look at Ted Cruz. Then there are organizations, such as the one run by "El Chapo" Guzman, that use terrorism to scare off any would be dogooders. It may not be considered "politically" driven, per se, but given the cartels are basically shadow governments, it's a fine line. Then there is the beheading of dissidents in Saudi Arabia. There are plenty of examples out there.

Biggest perpetrator of terrorism in modern history? Curtis LeMay.

I don't disagree with any of that, dirge. The way that the word terrorism gets thrown around when it comes to direct attacks on the US, it should be thrown around in those places too.

@gf/KC ... there is definitely a threat of violence for political purposes. Also, the fact that they say that they won't shoot on sight means nothing - this is the Bundy family and friends that we're talking about. Why take them on their word? Do you expect that they won't eventually get shot at? That's what happens when you coerce an armed force to come "negotiate" with you, which is exactly what they're doing.

You guys are looking so closely at what they have already done and ignoring the firestorm that they can cause.

Hey bo, did you get this worked up about Occupy Wall Street forcibly taking over bank offices? I also have a funny feeling you would not be so upset if we were talking about, say, Black Lives Matter protesters taking over a police substation in a strip mall, or striking factory workers storming the headquarters of the evil corporation that is laying them off, or college students storming the dean's office and demanding he resign, or any of a multitude of other causes.

But for some reason, rural gunowners upset about their way of life being regulated out of existence by a government that hates them as much as you do gets your goat. I wonder why that is.

@ Tolstoy: When was the last time striking factory workers occupied an office _at_gunpoint_ ?

I just looked up OWS taking over bank offices and found nothing, so no, because I've never heard of that. I was quite outspoken against Black Lives Matter in Minneapolis; it was quite shameful for them and in my mind the low point of the movement. The fact that I wasn't bored enough to post a thread on webDiplomacy is what's upsetting you, Tolstoy. You want to hear more from me and I think that's so sweet. <3

Aww he likes you, Bo.