He's wanting Italy to not be in the draw.

Czech, shut up, please.

I know what he wants, but obviously he is not getting it. Also lets not talk about an ongoing game. I sent the mail.

I'm dealing with this now. Please don't discuss the game in the Forum or in chat.

Abge, you should lock this thread.

Thank you all for your patience while I sorted this out.

Had I known, was busy haha... what a ?gameID=107265 ! lol

The thread has not been locked as per Draugs, let's all have a party here until the Mods are back, stick an ad om Facebook, we'll trash this thread before the grown-ups return, stick on some Country & Western really loud, let;s dance.... Gangnam style, oooh sexy lady woop ! woop !

Doesn't matter any more as the game is over and can be freely discussed now.

@The Czech, you have been previous warned against commenting on ongoing gunboats, should it happen again you will be docked no less then 10% of your total points.

Can we have a stewards enquiry on this one, that would be a bit steep, a 2400 point fine
Goldman Sachs did not get that big a fine for screwing up the financial markets
Jmo you're obviously not American as they don't believe the people should contribute based on their ability to pay, hence the US$16 trillion debt mountain and the fiscal cliff.
Regardless of his points total he should not be fined more for the same offence than a poor transgressor, the punishment should fit the crime. Also would that really make a difference as he can easily afford to pay.
What they should have done with the criminals at Goldman Sachs was to put them in prison, that would have sent a stronger message to the rest of the cheats in Wall St and beyond. Perhaps that is also a better course of action for transgressors on this site, not to dock points but to prevent them playing for 2 days, deny them their virtual liberty. Just an idea, don't shoot the messenger.

@Nigee - Really? A political diatribe? Nice try to troll but... Epic! Fucking! Fail!

Thanks for that interesting reply Nigee, but since The Czech seems like a reasonable person and is well respected I'm sure it won't be a problem again. I'm sure he doesn't want to poorly influence new members into breaking the rules by following the example of a veteran gunboat player.

Draug - Jmo introduced the interesting concept of docking points based on ones ability to pay which seems anathema to the American way. The sooner the rich in the US accept this concept the sooner the debt mountain can be tackled.
You defending the mega rich is not going to help the cause, ultimately it just comes down to greed, why are the rich not paying their fair share?
Gordon Gecko was wrong, so were the criminals at Goldman Sachs ...... greed is not good. Close those tax loopholes now and get people like Romney paying 39.6% tax at the higher rate.

But you brought up Wall Street and prison which was political.in nature. I will only point out two things. One, the bankers violated no criminal code. Civil, maybe, but not criminal and since the only recourse in civil law is monetary in nature and prison requires criminal/penal violations... And second, you could have suggested it without going the political route.

If you wish to discuss tax rates and loopholes the rich supposedly use (hint: capital gains is not a loophole but a legitimate recognition that was already taxed was risked and should not be at your supposed 39% tax rate - and I file capital gains every year on money I withdraw so it isn't just the multimillionaires who pay that rate) and your claims of GS criminal actions (hint: your claims.fail.because there were none) then create a thread about it.

Draug - the point I was making is that rich people (or rich players like The Cz) have less to fear from being fined/being docked points than they do from losing their liberty/freedom to play and possibly a more suitable threat for the rich is incarceration.
On the point of jailing people who have committed no crime now many people were put in Guantanamo Bay for years and then released without charge. When you're the American Govt. there are all sorts of human rights abuses you can get away with if you put your mind to it.
The latest one is HSBC laundering money for Iran and drug cartels, are you telling me no criminal offence has been committed.
Isn't it the truth that the poor go to prison, the rich go free. When you start buying in to their bullshit you become part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Goldmans Board should be doing time now for what they did. It makes a mockery of the rules supposedly put in place since Enron et al.

I don't understand why Nigee gets so much shit on the forum. I think he's insightful and pretty funny.

For a Brit.

+27

Take it to another thread Nigee. I'm not responding any more here.

Draugnar, grow up. Nigee makes good points and you appear to be arguing for the sake of it, please learn to be respectful.

Lando, fuck off. He wanted to politicize this thread which *should die*. I just want him to start a new thread and will be happy to discuss HSBC and Goldman Sachs and Mitt Romney's taxes to his heart's content. He does make good points, but his points here should stick to jmo's threat to dock 10% and the fairness of docking based on percentages versus absolute value and discussions about whther banning is appropriate for minor violations (I say it isn't) and not try arguing whther Goldman Sachs or its board committed any criminal offenses (the board didn't violate and criminal code and companies can't be imprisoned, only individuals can) or if HSBC did (the board there didn't either, they weren't actively participating in laundering the money, someone there just ignored the red flags that the cartels were using their system to do it).

So let's discuss the real points that should be discussed here. jmo threatened The Czech after the game was already finished and The Czech had only made the one comment which abge had already told him to "shut up" and done the mods job. jmo was out of line, if you ask me. He comes in and armchair referees after the fucking game is done and the head referee has already made a ruling. That was overstepping his bounds and *he* should be the one docked 10% of his points.

The points thing is a fair question. Turkey was docked 50 for posting in the game when abgemacht told us not to use the chat box he opened to communicate. That was around 5% of his point total. I don't play for points or GH so 10% wouldn't be that big a deal. I am, however, as abgemacht pointed out a reasonable fellow. I won't comment on ongoing gunboats. I was just trying to speed up his "grasp" of what was going on in the game. It was obvious England wanted a 3way and the others didn't. Partysane was correct in contacting a mod to investigate. He also posted AFTER I was told to shut it. Was a warning issued in that case? I am not trying to be persnickety. I do appreciate the hard work the mods do and I enjoy the way the site is run. No complaints about the notice of possible fine or anything else.

I recall a recent discussion where the overwhelming opinion of the community was that "nobody gives two shits about points."

In light of this, what makes the mod team assume that point-docking is a punishment that will deter any form of unwanted behaviour? If the former is true, which I was made to accept, then there is no relationship here. Can we have an explanation on this?

Everyone cares about points, they just pretend not to LOL

Yeah that's what I said back then, but I got berated.

Anyway geeve its just webdip. Reach Robart's so we can then reach Lick's.

Lando, I think there's a bit of a divide. The majority of established players don't care about points, but they're also the majority that won't cheat. It probably serves as an excellent deterrent to new players who don't have many points and think that they are important.

OK, I can accept that ghug. That does make sense most people who go about actively cheating to gain an advantage are probably looking for points. However, in this thread we are talking about a different issue.

I am not making a statement about whether or not Partysane, curtis, Dharmy or Czech deserve points to be docked (although keep in mind Dharmy was docked points for something in this mess).

But, in a case like this these people are probably those who do not actively cheat and also those who don't care so much about points - if you look at the games played on all four of these players they appear to be heavily addicted, just like.

And, further point, this is a common problem - people doing stupid shit in regards to gunboats on the forum. So, perhaps we need to think of an appropriate policy for dealing with this problem. Do you agree, ghug? Do the mods understand this perspective?

I do agree that point docking is not the perfect solution. I think that it probably would have been a good idea to lock the thread, but I also think that it would be useful to have another method of deterrence.

I am happy you agree.

Personally, I think that there has been a problem of gunboat players talking about live games in the forum. I believe that 90% of the time the person doing it is being harmless and knows as much. However, it does set a bad example and it does lead to things becoming more common. Sarg used to be the biggest problem with this, he is gone and things have settled. I believe we need to keep control on this - it has always been a problem and is something I really don't like in my games. I have reported these instances before and never gotten any kind of result from that - despite them being obvious and in the forum.

I do not believe that the mods track these violations (I do not mean to use Czech as an example, but I will). He has before done similar things - made small jokesthat are intended to be harmless. However, these can and do sometimes have an impact. Now he has been told if it happens again he will have a specific punishment. I suspect that next time he says something like "Damn, I drew Austria again" after a game starts nothing will happen. Not that I want it to, but I also would prefer he not make smart remakrs about gunboats after they start (again, Czech, I do not mean offense and I know this isn't your usual style).

I believe that this is an example of where easy improvements can be made, and I ask that the mod team come up with a policy that they can enact efficiently and equitably to solve this issue. And if they cannot or will not, I would like to hear why.

And I do not believe that increased "punishments" are the solution.

Not offended. The Damn I drew XXXX agains, BTW is NORMALLY after the game has filled but BEFORE the game actually starts. I will be more careful though. The mods have spoken.

As far as points go, Kestas once told the mods he *didn't* want points docked for forum activity anyhow. so it seems jmo is threatening to go against Kestas's wishes anyhow. No, the better thing to do is use the mod silencing powers for forum violations. That is what they are there for and what jmo should have threatened if he felt abge wasn't strict enough and jmo should never have threatened that without the other mods approval.

wow- lots of inky electrons here.....
what is Curtis' take on this, eh ?

@Draugnar, if Kestas didn't want us docking points we wouldn't be. And to clear this up, the collective agreement with the active mods and admins is that 10% or 20 , whichever is more and/or a silence is the standard deterrent after 1 current warning for breaking gunboat forum rules. Since I haven't had to dock more then 1 person yet it seems to be working.

Abge is retired, he very kindly stepped in to keep several players from wasting hours on a game that was stalemated, and then he handed the remainder off to me when I got online. I'm not sure where this idea that we don't talk and come to an agreement before posting on the forum comes from, but it couldn't be farther from the truth. Regardless, the warning isn't up for debate, though The Czech is of course welcome to send an email to [email protected] if he feels this warning was unjustified.

@Lando, while everyone claims points mean nothing to them you'll notice that those same people still play in high pot games. There is no need to do this since we have a password option. Therefore I'd say it's reasonable to assume that people who play in higher point games have some attachment to points.

I got banned and silenced for breaking a rule. #thisisapolicestate

Then it sounds like it's covered, jmo. I do remember abge saying that kestas doesn't like docking points for forum violations though. I could dig up the really old post, but it isn't worth it. If you guys have a standard 10%/20 whichever is greater plus possible silence, then the mods are in agreement and that's all I care.

Some of us, even when we have points, tend to just play passworded games for as few a points as we can. I couldn't care less about points except that having enough to get me in the games I want to play are important. I'd be just as happy if they went away and we had a real ranking system.

Yes, I compete in high points pots. I've lost plenty. I play in those games because 1) they are less likely to have multis in them and 2) they are normally the same guys I play 5 point games with. If Dharmaton, Lando, 2ndwhiteline, Barn3tt, SplitDiplomat, etc. want to play 1 point pot games with me I will. It is about the game not teh points. Guarantee me no multis in 5 point pot games and I'll sign up all day long. Until then 101 and up is my pref. I do however still play in <50 point games just to play knowing that someone will CD or there is a multi.

@jmo see my 1:01 post

No complaints about the notice of possible fine or anything else.

eog....

The game was a long game but I do not think that the MODS should have intervened. Things were happening… just slowly because signaling is not clear in a no message game.

The last chance I had for a Solo was Spring of 1913 ….I could have taken Berlin with Baltic Sea supporting Kiel. I was also controlling Piedmont at the time so I probably could have taken Munich in Autumn by tweaking Tyrolia’s support of Munich.

It was not until Autumn of 1915 that Austria shored up the north. I had a few missed chances. I really did not play that well.

By that time I was signaling with orders for Turkey to take out Italy for a 3 way draw supporting him into Naples… He either did not read it or did not want to. At that point I thought he did not want to…. And I since it is supposedly anonymous…. Thought that he did not want to because there was too great of a risk in having me solo…

So my next step was to withdraw from St. Petersburg to lower my SC count…. When there was no response…. I withdrew back in the south to MAO draw line.

When turkey still did not respond… I thought that Austria might do something if I gave them 3 more SCs in the North. Unfortunately the game was drawn by mods.

I thought that would been interesting to see what would happen…

If that had not worked, I was thinking about throwing it Austria’s way.

Instead of a great interesting game… we had MODs intervene… I think that was a mistake. But thank you Mods for volunteering!

The mods wouldn't have forced the draw if they felt the person going for a win's plan had even a small chance of working. So consider it just a saving of time. The win wouldn't have happened.

No, but the shrink of the draw might have.

I watched the last several years of the game after it was posted in the forum. I can see why they were frustrated with England. It was clear for a long time that they weren't going to eliminate Italy and they all had their draw votes up. It came across to an outsider like England was just being greedy and wasting them all 1.5 hours of time.

Can we all agree that force drawing the game was obviously the wrong decision here? SCs were exchanged the turn the game was drawn. You can tell because the game was force-drawn during a *builds* phase. That is remarkable and certainly completely against the policy that the mods have stated that they follow as far as I know - that they will force draw if and only if the game is stable and no SCs have been exchanged for two years. It wasn't at all a stable end game. That sucks. I would be really pissed if I were in the game.

@uclabb - I haven't looked close, but a game can be in a builds phase without any SCs being exchanged or even a unit having been disbanded. I am in a game where I have an unused build form the previous build phase. If nothing changes hands but I manage to clear out a home SC, it will have a build phase.

And if you read the global press, it is obvious abge asked the players to read the PMs he sent them. If they didn't have a good answer or any answer at all, he was right to draw the game.

Well, there is probably more to it than that. Obviously there was movement on the board and one player didn't want the game to be drawn. However, the game was moving dynamically and without any interference on the forum things may have had more an opportunity to change. Maybe the game should have been drawn, since it had been affected by the discussion in the forum and therefore ruined.

I communicated very clearly with the players involved before drawing. Also note that 45 minutes went by between me opening communication and actually drawing the game.

As I've already told everyone who has criticized my action, they should feel free to email the mods if they feel I was in the wrong. It will be independently looked into. Complaining on the forum, however, will accomplish nothing.

@Draug

Initially (over a year ago) Kestas did not like the point docking policy. Since then, the mods and kestas have agreed that a mix of point docking and Silencing, depending on the situation, is the best method available to us.

@Lando

"I believe that this is an example of where easy improvements can be made, and I ask that the mod team come up with a policy that they can enact efficiently and equitably to solve this issue. And if they cannot or will not, I would like to hear why."

If you have suggestions, I'm sure all the mods would be happy to hear them. IMHO, Silencing players is very draconian and should be used sparingly. I'd be hesitant to use that as the primary means of punishment. Besides docking points, there isn't much more we can do, but we are, of course, always open to suggestions.

As long as it is consistent, I'm cool with it abge. I was just pointing out what I had read at some point in the past. It changed. It has Kestas' approval. And all the mods know and abide by it. It's fine by me.