"palestinian people...they did not exist."

truthfully what israel has done over several decades would legally constitute genocide - as would the american settlement of north america. nevertheless, what's done is done, and abandoning the nation is not an option. it has to defend itself.

This thread is gonna be a doozy, I predict. So here are some sites to inform yourselves...

http://whatreallyhappened.com/atastj.html

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/palestinians.html

Israel is VERY good at two things. Playing the victim and staging false flags.

USS Liberty
Lavon Affair
Jonathan Pollard
...just to name a few.

What Israel is presently doing in Gaza, was exactly the justification used for her very creation (UN resolution 181).

hmm, so maybe the UN should create a palestine lol

Even if you don’t take into account the enforced disparities in living conditions, access to resources, and self-determination—when you compare the raw numbers, 130 Palestinians killed over two months to 3 Israelis killed over twelve, it’s hard to continue seeing this simply as a case of Israel defending itself.

Humans have a right to whatever they can have. If Palestine is unable to defend itself, then its right to its land is forfeit.

I agree to this, though I expect most other wont

what should they do? are there not groups of people who seek to kill israelis and destroy their nation? they pretty much have to seek out and kill the people who are doing this - its not like they'll change their minds.

though i do imagine israel intends to do with the mid east what americans did in north america. i hate to admit it, but that might be a better world.

Heh, at least Medi realizes just who the aggressor is. But what's more interesting is his/her alignment in attitude with some of the most horrific dictators that ever lived.

To put it mildly, that's not very respectable.

"i hate to admit it, but that might be a better world."

Why stop at Palestine?

who knows where they will be in 200 years? will israel stretch to the persian gulf? i can't foreclose the possibility of biological warfare to destroy the populations and settle the land. israel is as determined as america was, it seems.

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

Both sides have a huge number of people who want to continue to fight, making it an unsolvable problem. When you have senior officials refusing to negotiate at all it becomes impossible.

The actions taken by Israel recently have been truly stupid as well. Blockading the Gaza strip? Did anyone not see it being blown up and hundreds of people flocking out?

I remember the Israeli defense minister appearing on the BBC a month ago... War-mongering Idiot probably best describes him...

Are you sure of those death numbers though? I'm pretty sure more than 3 Israelis have been killed in the past twelve months. I don't have a source but I believe the explosives being tossed out of the Gaza strip will have killed more than 3 people.

I don't see palestian militant leaders pleading their case on the BBC or CNN though, I believe they are also war-mongering bastards all the same.

Medi, Imperialism is generally considered amoral, and with good reason. Frankly, I don't agree with the opinions or actions of either group. The Arabs said that they would push the Israelis into the sea when the state was formed, should international forces leave, and ever since they've been trying. That said, Isreal has disgraced itself also with its own agression. This is the problem with any, and every war where both nations think God is on their side, they simply do not agree to a peace. Ever.

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983

"The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

I don't believe Israel has the determination or resources to expand from where it is. It won the six day war and didn't expand its territories very far when it had the chance. It also has natural borders on all sides.

They also have sacrificed a lot of land recently. The Palestinian run territories cover a huge amount of Israel - though not in the ideal areas...

Deir Yassin...anyone know that?

"I don't believe Israel has the determination or resources to expand from where it is."

Of course they do...you don't think they'd waste the millions of dollars of yearly aid from the US and their superior weaponry for nothing, do you?

And nukes...Israel has nukes.

if israel nukes any islamic country, they will be destroyed. many countries are happy for now to have little surrogate wars, ex syria, saudi arabia, but if israel ever used a nuke on an islamic population, armies would mobilize, missles would fly, and israel would be destroyed

am I wrong?

They wouldn't be able to take or hold any more territory. They wouldn't be able to hold out against the entire Arab world, three countries is one thing - but Turkey, Iran, Iraq, the Palestinians in their own country, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and all the others in the vicinity which would give them a real ass-fucking if they started taking more land in an internationaly unsanctioned fashion. I mean, come on - besides the US very few countries totally support Israel. If it looks like the US will lose more than it would gain from supporting Israel they'd back out in a second.

Took way too long to write that :P

Not at all. But you will see the irony when you juxtapose Israel's sabre rattling with regard to Iran.

"If it looks like the US will lose more than it would gain from supporting Israel they'd back out in a second"

Ever hear of AIPAC?

Israel plays the victim whenever Iran is involved, and threatens Europe on behalf of Iran :P

Im with dangermouse on this one...lol, but really what the European powers did to Palestine wasnt to smart. the 6 day war and all of that stuff. There have been miniscule steps made, but something else should have been done instead of erasing Palestine and making it Israel.

AIPAC would not be able to allow Israel to take more land. With international condemnation the US would join with everyone else.

So, on one hand we have inflammatory rhetoric from Pandora about a "Palestinian holocaust."

On the other hand, we have Pandora agreeing with my inflammatory statement that self-interest is the only motivation a country should have, and thus refusing to condemn Israel.

Yep, looks like we've got a troll here. Move along, everyone, move along.

I think people tend to side with israel, viewing palestinians as terrorist instigators. I think this is false, because Israel is far more aggressive.
but I agreed with you statement "Humans have a right to whatever they can have" in a general way, though maybe not in this very specific example

Brut...there has been international condemnation APLENTY in the form of over 60 UN resolutions regarding Israel. More than any other nation. And that doesn't even include the ones that the US vetoed in favor of Israel.

The precedence is NOT the US joining in international condemnation...it is shunning it with it's vetos and support of Israel's deeds

If Israel has been conducting a "genocide" it has done this very badly.

Please lookup that word in a common dictionary.

This topic looked pretty dead...

Wiktionary's definition of Genocide:
"The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, or other particularity."

Whenever an Israeli kills a palestinian it is because of their ethnicity, religion, and political opinion... 3 of the 4 counts not including other. Maybe it hasn't been as systematic as what would usually be termed genocide but it can easily be called such.

I'm glad to live in the country that almost singlehandedly supports israels war machine. so the israelis weapons are paid for by the biggest military in the world, while the palestinians only weapons are stones and bravery

Ugh...

thought you would find this interesting

"I am currently living and working in Southern Palestine in the west bank town of Hebron. The idea that the Occupation is self-inflicted is a disgusting myth that should be refuted by any good libertarian. The Palestinian people have no rights, can be humiliated, shamed, beaten, held in the sun or the rain for hours, can be kicked out of their houses whenever the Army decides , can be occupied in their own houses for years by the military, can have their land stolen by the settlers. They face intimidation whenever they try and organise, and to put right that peice if filthy racism, the Palestinian people are geniuses at self-organisation. Every village is run from a Popular Committee which is voted in on popular concensus. Decisions are made by the people, despite the fact that the PA has decided not to support the people and be the PR campaign for Israel and be just as oppressive as Israel.

As for the Gaza strip, the rockets that Hamas fires are nothing more than drainpipes with a peice of metal with welded fins placed inside. They are not missiles, if anything they are enthusiastic fireworks! They have to directly hit someone to hurt them. They have no guidance systems, just fire and hope for the best. (or the worst) Gaza has 95% unemployment, 80% in poverty 1.6 million people crammed into an area 4 by 6 km. They are not allowed to fish in their own waters, they cannot get out of Gaza, when Sharon pulled the settlements out he assured the complete prison sentence for the Gazans. The airforce bombs the place everyday. Now tell me that you wouldnt start wanting to fight back against the Israeli’s?

People have this idea that the conflict is even, but the main weapons of the Palestinians is stones and bravery. I have stood with children in front of guns, and i have watched them get shot and killed for throwing stones. I have witnessed the army torture and beat people for doing nothing but filming. I have seen some of the atrocities of the West Bank but not all, and i hope that you can understand what it is like for these people. Come and see for yourselves, live with these people. Be held up at checkpoint for hours trying to get to school, be attacked by drunk settlers or the army. If not then you have no right to call this conflict self inflicted!"


I think It has to be emphasized that opposing the conduct of the Israeli government and army does not imply supporting its opponents–i.e., Palestinian nationalists, jihadist organizations, fascist anti-Semites, etc.



yes tuco do you have something to say

I thought you were on probation.

if you all dont want me to start new threads then fine, but there is absolutly no reason I shouldnt post.

for someone who complains so much about wasting space...

recent news

"A member of the group told Israel Radio that while Dichter was speaking, a volley of gunfire burst forth for about 5 seconds, wounding Gil.

Israeli troops immediately returned fire and army radio reported that tanks and bulldozers entered Gaza after the shooting. Palestinian casualties unknown.