Yes, overturned by Lincoln, but expelled none-the-less. I think you knew this along, getting you to concede it, was indeed like pulling teeth.

As to the second paragraph it is really not my fault if you can't comprehend the difference implied by your use of the words ''exceptions'' and ''many individuals''.

I didn't know it all along, its an obscure point of history that doesn't need to be taught because it was an act of a General in the field that was overturned by the president itself and affected 11 families. I had no clue, very interesting. Now tell me, did Marshall Petain overturn the holocaust?

"
As to the second paragraph it is really not my fault if you can't comprehend the difference implied by your use of the words ''exceptions'' and ''many individuals''. "

There is no difference, In the first I was obviously speaking out of the entire population where there was a small proportion (or exceptions) to the general rule. But when you play that out over all of Europe that makes "Many individuals"

Is that so hard to comprehend?

To simplify it for you (because it seems you need it) 23,000 people are known currently as Righteous among the nations, that is "many individuals." However when you look at that out of hundreds of millions that large number is an exception.

Denmark is indeed a remarkable story. The Nazis looked on them as a kindred people and sent a comparatively mild German to oversee matters. The tougher diehards were largely sent east.
There is no doubt too that fascism in Italy in the 1920s was not remarkably anti-semetic (things were to change later). Indeed the name Aldo Finzi springs to mind.
As to Bulgaria much credit is due to this one individual - Dimitar Peshev. Unfortunately Greek Jews under their occupation fared a little worse.

One Bulgarian

and one Frenchmen (Trocome). Both did what they could, it doesn't mean that the entirety of the Bulgarians behaved any better or worse than the entirety of Frenchmen. After all such a point of view would surely be racist.

you are getting hung up on national charecteristics. that is not what this is about, it is about a nation defining who is French and who is Bulgarian etc. Some nations had an easier time deciding that Jews were members of their community. Muslims in Albania, Bulgarians, an Iranian Diplomat, A Danish King. One man or men it might have been. What does that say about the nations, especially the West European nations and communities that did not stand up for their Jewish population.

I have never said there is any inherent characteristic. I am talking actions, you are getting emotional and talking about inner good and human nature and all that bullshit. We are discussing apples and oranges.

"As has been shown a few nations (including a fascist one) and many individuals saved their Jewish countrymen, but doing so was obviously impossible, and how dare I pass judgement on those who knew what was occuring but did nothing. "

"To simplify it for you (because it seems you need it) 23,000 people are known currently as Righteous among the nations, that is "many individuals." However when you look at that out of hundreds of millions that large number is an exception. "

So just to clarify, you hold the entire population of occupied Europe with the exception of 23,000 individuals responsible for the holocaust?

It seems as though your argument on ''exceptions'' has now been extended from individuals to countries. Apparently Denmark, Bulgaria and Italy are exceptions and France is not. And then you give your metric as the recorded Righteous among the nations.

It is an interesting metric to use. The leading three contributors to the list are Poland> Netherlands > France. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_among_the_Nations
I guess that you would argue with this?

No, there were more than 23,000, those were the only ones not recognized, and there are the communities and individuals that tried politically, and militarily to stop the killing on an individual, group, or systematic level. But do I hold every European who knew what was occurring and chose to do nothing somewhat responsible? Yes I do. I can't see why you do not.

I believe they fit into the individual category. These places had the most individuals because there was no community organization to stop the killings. Differences were made on the individual level. Poland was also where Jews were massacred by Poles after coming home to claim their houses and find their families

and yet again Ful, I am not talking about national characteristics. Try to get that through your thick head.

Santa that was a very weak response to this; ''The leading three contributors to the list are Poland> Netherlands > France. '' In particular when you so recently said this:
''What does that say about the nations, especially the West European nations and communities that did not stand up for their Jewish population.''

Have Yad Vashem got it wrong?

I am not a supporter of the holocaust but lets look at some facts in the 30s:

in 1939 which country:
Was the number 1 in the world at providing healthcare to its citizens (keeping in mind that jews were not allowed to be German citizens)?
Had the highest average salary in the world?
Had the lowest unemployment in the world?
Had the highest number of entrepreneurial investments?

The Nazi's did a lot of good for Germany, but we only seem to remember the bad. We also seem to forget that the first stages of the holocaust (pre-1935 concentration camp days), Jews were being treated the same way in Germany as Retards and Blacks were in America. Back then everyone was racist, the Chinese wouldn't allow foreigners to immigrate to their country if their skin colour was Black or White, the Japanese killed and raped hundred of thousands of Chinese women and children, just because of their nationality.

The Americans (and Canadians) refused to let German Jews into the country, despite knowing about the horrors of Germany.

The British Prime Minister refused to intervene in the holocaust in order to postpone the start of the war. The British King (who resigned in 1935) wanted to ally with the Nazi's and when the way started he even went as far as committing treason (and being exiled as a result) to aid German intelligence networks.

Every country the Nazi's either allied with or occupied willingly participated in the holocaust with the exception of Bulgaria. Bulgaria refused to allow the Germans to arrest and their Jews on the premise of morals and faced no repercussions as a result.

The reality is, the holocaust happened not because 1 man went insanse and wanted to kill and torture millions of Jews, but because everyone else let him do so.

Jews shouldn't be slandering Hitler and being terrified of the holocaust, but celebrate it, for it wasn't until the repercussions of the holocaust that mankind started considering Jews to be human, before then almost everyone saw them as an inferior race (alongside blacks). If it wasn't for the holocaust the civil rights movements wouldn't have happened, or atleast would have happened much later.

I thought it was an excellent response. Again I do not believe in national characteristics. I also know France and Poland had massive Jewish populations with alot of people that could be helped AND there was no systematic or community organization that helped such as in places like Bulgaria, Denmark, and Italy. Thus it was up to individuals to save the many Jews in their country and thousands did just that and as a result more individuals are credited for what in other countries groups and "Great Men" were credited for. Explain why this is a weak answer, I feel it hits the nail right on the head.

Also note Poland, the Netherlands, and France were all hotbeds of resistance activities, which is where the medals are probably predominately going to/

Epic failure on France. Jewish population pre-war 250 000, or 0.6 % also massive failure on Holland 150 000 at around 1.5 % of the population. No comparison with many of the countries of central and eastern Europe, either in absolute levels or proportions. And yet those two western European countries are # 2 and 3 in the list.

''Massive populations'' in this context, they were not, you have this objective point wrong again, most likely as the result of your subjective prejudices.

Did you actually write that france (and holland) was a ''hotbed(s) of resistance activities''?
I am confused....very confused.....
I only just read this:
''What does that say about the nations, especially the West European nations and communities that did not stand up for their Jewish population.''

what are you even talking about Ful, The large populations of France also would help show why it has more total medals, as would the west's greater engagement with the History of the Holocaust. These figures are insignificant either way.

This is what arguing with you is like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JPgc8LvElc

You proved it Ful! I don't know what you proved, but from the number of times you have said epic fail about something completely insignificant I assume you think you are making incredible points. Congrats, you win.

I'm sorry, resistance activities were primarily oriented to saving jews? Who knew, publish that in a book and see how far it gets.

the use of the righteous as anyone can see was an off hand example, it wasn't statistics proving anything, it was showing how there could be "many individuals" yet an exception. Yet you ran with it and are smugly making statistical analysis with numbers that are lower than 1 percent of the population. I only regret I engaged your stupidity in the first place.

You said France had a massive Jewish population. I demonstrated that, in this context ,you were absolutely wrong, it is very rare in these debates that this happens. Take it on the chin, just like the example of Grant's anti-semitism and the Paducah expulsion where you were also objectively wrong. Apparently your subjective prejudices count for more than facts

'''I'm sorry, resistance activities were primarily oriented to saving jews?'' But you gave it as an example in response to this: ''''The leading three contributors to the list are Poland> Netherlands > France. '' Oh dear

Whatever Ful, I could say I wasn't talking about proportion of the population which is true. I could say the France had the 5th highest population of Jews in Europe which is true. I could say whatever but you will just come up with another hair brained gotcha that supposedly shows something. In context of course, we wee comparing Denmark, Italy, and Bulgaria's population to France which at 350k is massive coparably, but somehow that got twisted to huge percentage of the population (?) I didn;t know about paducah nor did you until you went on an EPIC google spree and found an obscure event which you now pass off like every school boy in America knows about.

And for anyone who knows WWII history resistance movements were not oriented toward saving jews but, being opposed to the government were associated with activities that did help jews, ie forging papers etc. Again another gotcha moment that is not a gotcha moment. Of course in context I was responding to your assumption that all resistance movements were created to help the jews.

I quit go fuck yourself Ful, you are worse than Putin

Its fascinating how you take words and put meaning into them that were never intended or they dont even mean. Many becomes most, Massive when comparing to smaller countries all of a sudden refers to a proportion of a larger country, A resistance movement is obviously oriented toward saving Jews and if it is not it can't help jews along the way. It is absolutely mind blowing. Do you just act stupid to make these assertions or are you in fact stupid.

I'm surprised no one's brought up the Milgram experiments, which demonstrated quite conclusively in the early '60s that the overwhelming majority of people, regardless of background or belief, will obey authority before their conscience. The question of how many people collaborated with the Nazis and what countries they came from is irrelevant. They were human beings, subject to typically human flaws.

Ibadibam,

Remember that pitiful excuse you made for the most horrendous actions of the modern era when someone rapes and murders your wife because their gang leader told them too.

You can draw solice by repeating to yourself endlessly "They were human beings, subject to typically human flaws."

Good riddance to your pitiful perspective on life, and none to quick.

Some interesting statistics on the French role in the Holocaust.

The two best works on the subject "The Holocaust, The French, and the Jews" and "Vichy France and the Jews" clearly expose the role of French anti-semitism.

The French only killed a quarter of the native born French Jewish population, but almost half of the foreign born Jewish population residing in France ( a mix of xenophobia and anti-Semitism).

I use the verb killing properly because deporting Jews from France to the Nazis was a death sentence, and the French knew this when they did it.

The main reason that 75% of France's Jews survived is that they fled into the mountainous countryside.

The Dreyfus affair is testament to the virulent anti-Semitism in France.

Both books demonstrate that the Vichy government actually anticipated Nazi action against Jews in France by rounding up Jews before orders even arrived. The Vichy government also went beyond the letter of their orders.

The number of French collaborators who worked with the Nazis was larger than the number of Frenchmen in the resistance. Barely 1 percent of the French population was active in the resistance as late as 1944.

The trial of Klaus Barbie in the early 1980's prevented the French from burying the dirty truth of their shame.

The real catastrophe for Jews in France was the significant number of virulent anti-Semites in the country as well as the substantial number of French fascists willing to literally outdo the Nazis at times.

Anyone who ignores the outrageous complicity of the French and France in the Holocaust can only do so safely in the company of imbeciles.

All I'm saying, Tet, is that their nationalities were irrelevant, which a lot of people have been making a big deal of on this thread. I don't believe their actions were excusable.