Squigs44:
Cordial greetings from Squigs before he reveals a shtick. He starts quoting people's posts and stating his opening thoughts regarding what it could indicate about their alignment. He makes the following claims, respectively:
1) Fox - town (3)
2) Flavius - slight scum (2)
3) me - slight town (2)
4) Balki - town (5)
5) et - very slight scum (2)
6) dargo - slight town (1)
7) connor - town (1)
8) Carl - slight town (1)
9) Percy - slight town (4)
10) teacon - slight scum (1)
11) Chippe - slight scum (3)
12) Tom - town (2)
13) ND - town (2)
Presuming he townreads himself, he's leaving out 9 players. Two of whom (Durga and rdrivera) he's interacted with without giving indication of how he reads them. The underline vs bold is where he hedges vs where he makes a hard read. He hedges all of his 4 scum reads, one of them even being so bold as to call itself "very slight." I did that my first game (M11) and got torn to shreds for it because of how hedgy it is. It makes him suggesting 5 hard town reads in these posts almost weird.
When Flavius first asks him to explain it, Squigs refuses because it would ruin the fun. I'm inclined to agree, the reactions to it made it pretty fun. But then Flavius asks again and Squigs says:
Looking back, I have a pretty big problem with this explanation. Namely, Squigs is certainly not doing what he's saying this other guy was doing (indicated in bold. As mentioned above, it's not every player, but in my list I also give a number for which post Squigs uses for each player that he says he uses to determine their alignment. Only 4 players were judged based on their first post. That's not counting the number of posts between the times when they make the post and when Squigs quotes them. So Squigs is being untruthful for some reason, and I'll only accept one possibility here.I leaned many new tactics over on MU for solving. I wanted to try some of them in this game. There is a guy over there who makes reads on the first post of every player in every game and is better than random accurate
Flavius makes a comment about how Squigs reads Foxy as scum, and Squigs very adamantly calls Flavius out as a liar (lol), and when Flavius says it was just a mistake Squigs calls it a lie whether or not there was ill intent. He calls Flavius out for being defensive, but when Carl suggests that he should vote for him for that reason Squigs says
but he goes on to say he considers Flav his strongest scumread still.I tend to use my vote early for pressure or to make a point. I think Flav already has enough pressure. Besides, his greatest crimes right now are being defensive and lying. Townies are defensive and lie all the time. What you have to do is look at why Flav lied and why he is being defensive.
He also calls out Flav for having 7 scum in his reads list, but with time to reflect since there are 6 people on the scum team I really don't think 7 is necessarily a stretch for a reads list. Squigs is blowing a lot of Flav's posts way out of proportion, and I don't like it.
Gets in a fight with teacon but seems pretty inconsequential except for this line
Gets back into a fight with Carl about voting vs not voting. When I get in a fight with teacon, Squigs says I'm getting caught up on "two or three joke posts" and asks how I feel about his "lot of other posts and stances" which is the question I've been meaning to come back to. But the problem is that I'd say the question is based on a mischaracterization of teacon's posts. He presumes teacon to have substance to him because of his own conversation with him, but their argument seems very sudden and almost fabricated.So I have had a recent shift in opinion on meta, to use it more lightly and look more at people's motivations than their actions. It is still useful in some scenarios, and is unavoidable to unconsciously include in your judgement, but I would say here on webDip we use meta a little too much.
Tells Durga he's not defending Flavius, joins in on the Roast of Chippe, continues fighting against Carl now over Squigs attacking Flavius over the number of scum in his list. Votes for Chippe for not being clear and "post[ing] without scumhunting" which causes Carl to vote for Squigs which causes Tom to call Carl scummy. Squigs says
Percy quotes Squigs criticizing Flavius for his number of scumreads and asks how many scumreads Squigs handed out. The answer is 4. Squigs said he thinks he missed a couple people and would "do them real quick and give [Percy] a breakdown" but he never did. I had to do it myself by hand.If I explained my vote now it would lose its purpose. Remind me later and I will explain.
Carl and Percy say that Squigs giving his gut reads is the same as Flavius doing his list, but Squigs says it's different because his gut reads aren't meant to influence the rest of the game and instead are just a "fun exercise" whereas Flavius gave criteria. Then in the middle of this conversation stops to give his last gut read, the one on ND.
Squigs leaves for a while and comes back and unvotes because now he thinks Chippe believes what he's saying. He cites the number of votes on Chippe when he jumps off then gives a half-hearted plea for others to do the same. Then he threatens Chippe that he'll vote for him anyway.
Yes, I am being quite vicious towards Flav... by witholding my vote? And yes, I am only jumping on bandwagons... except that I have only placed one vote - on you - with reasoning given - and as the second voter.
Leaves for the night, comes back, votes Tom because "His play is so awfully awk right now. His posts aren't actually moving discussion at all. Town Tom is much better than this." To which I'd like to draw everyone's attention back to the earlier lineI would be fine with a Flav lynch at this point in the game, but there are still lots of other people who I still need to read and analyze and question. We still have people who haven't posted in the game yet.
Leaves for a couple hours, comes back, says he'll get to questions in about half an hour, leaves for another hour still not back. (I wrote this last part before he returned obviously.)So I have had a recent shift in opinion on meta, to use it more lightly and look more at people's motivations than their actions. It is still useful in some scenarios, and is unavoidable to unconsciously include in your judgement, but I would say here on webDip we use meta a little too much.
This man is full of lies, vitriol, hypocrisy, and unfulfilled promises.
QUESTIONS:
Why did you not cover everyone in your gut reads?
Why is 7 players so unrealistic in a reads list for a game with a 6 person scum team?
Why were you inconsistent about the hedgy nature of these reads?
When you said you wanted to move away from meta, do you still agree?
Foxcastle:
Yowza! I'm hoping this one isn't as long as the Squigs one. Opens by pointing out that et and Carl are creeping on the thread without posting, then says he doesn't want a joke phase. Though, he's not particularly serious until like page 4, about 10 posts (of his own) into the game. When connor says the Squigs method is insane, Foxy seems taken aback that connor might think he's targeting Squigs. Continues joking again until page 8 where he says he "strongly disagrees" with my assessment of lists. Jokes again, then disappears for several hours.
Says we shouldn't be derailed by the Chippe claim. Now that he's back (page 29) he's starting to really participate. He calls out lurkers, he questions Squigs about his method behind the gut reads. He asks why ND and Durga aren't fighting, says he's being cautious about reading Flavius. But he is suspicious of Percy. This suspicion is the only real suspicion he has so far, everything else he's suggested have been policy lynches of lurkers or of Chippe.
Foxy seems to be shotgunning in terms of attention. He's asking around, trying ask questions of and discuss with a large group of people.
QUESTIONS:
Who do you think might be on the scum team and why?
et:
Pretty barren in terms of posts, but that should probably be expected from someone who hasn't played before. A few quick joke interactions to start the game, including suggesting a discussion with Balki about the Jailer role. Mentions he's new, says his werewolf game never really had fake claims (lucky bastard) and says he's not used to reading games on here.
Several hours later asks why people are voting since they didn't explain themselves (bozo for Chippe and Tom and Carl for me). Asks Carl about his (then unexplained) baseball analogy, and asks Chippe to play the game instead of continuing the VT debate. Defends Percy from Foxy and says part of why he didn't understand Tom voting was because of how early it was.
They're changeable.If that is unchangeable vote, I will vote damo or Cru.
Because if we don't lynch player without comment, scums can hide very easily.
What they have to do is just keeping silence.
If changeable one, I will vote Nep. Because Nep seemed to catch up this thread, but not to be so active. So, I want to see reaction.
I thought boz, but I wonder boz react me. So, I think Nep is better.
QUESTIONS:
So do you think Nep is scum?
Who else do you think might be?
Why do you come to so many people's defense?
Why are lurkers higher priority in terms of lynching?
Balki Bartokomous:
Really insane number of posts, and I'm not excited. Said he'd leave about an hour after game start. Considers Flavius defensive and suspicous, so he votes for him. Suggests it's too quiet since he's ALLEGEDLY about to leave. But when the hour dawns he's STILL HERE. This is strike one
He interacts more with Flavius, asks whether they've played together (referencing the comment that Balki is smart and experienced), asks how the inspiration of the Squigs method relates to him, asks for an explanation of the list. Pushing him the way you do a scumread. Goes on to also scumread teacon as someone who seems like they're trying to be pleasing. Brings the conversation back to the Flavius list. Asks around a few questions. Some stuff kinda weird like
In context what was meant was obvious, so what's the point of asking?What do you mean by "the main thing..." ? The main thing of what? The main reason to scumread him? Something else?
Asks if Durga knows what the scum roles are since she seems unsure whether or not there's a day chat. Strongly defends Chippe saying there's no way a scum would do this. Suggests that he thinks Durga is scum because her posts are "safe" but with the interaction about day chat I think it should be more realistic to draw the opposite conclusion.
Calls teacon smarmy and lays out a whole case around it. Keeps pushing Flavius about the "smart and experienced" comment like 30 pages later. The explanation Flavius gives actually makes sense, on reread Balki claims to have a lot of experience early on and someone referred to him as clever, so that seems pretty blown out of proportion. Changes his mind on Durga and says she's towny and reiterates his push against Flavius. So he's static on Flavius across the game and on Durga his read feels... unnatural?
Says he thinks Carl's argument against me is strong but Flav's push against me makes him think I may not really be scummy. He then asks Cruaader to vote one way or the other and pushes against Chippe for presuming Cruaader is a towny. He debates a couple people about the semantics of it but I think his point of trying to make a clear differentiation between taking someone as town as a given vs reading them as town is a strong enough one.
He then shifts his focus squarely on teacon for being "smarmy."
He suggests it's alignment indicative because he's asking questions more from a place of being welcoming and not to get to the heart of any real issue. Which is also a strong point, especially given the array of posts Balki uses as evidence. He then goes back to ask about how people feel about Flavius.smarmy adjective
\ ˈsmär-mē \
smarmier; smarmiest
Definition of smarmy
1 : revealing or marked by a smug, ingratiating, or false earnestness
a tone of smarmy self-satisfaction
— New Yorker
2 : of low sleazy taste or quality
smarmy eroticism
QUESTIONS:
Why did you scum read Durga after the day chat conversation?
What was the point in asking what "the main thing" meant?
TrPrado:
Unbelievably smart and handsome towny.
QUESTIONS:
How did you get so cool?
FlaviusAetius:
So, this is the one where I've gotta throw out my preconceived notions a bit because I've interacted with him a decent bit myself already. He's been tunneling pretty hard, but you can do that as any alignment. I've brought him up earlier in this post in the context of Squigs and Balki taking his posts and blowing them up out of proportion.
So at the open of the game he mentions he just pulled off a "legendary" senior prank and should have more time on his hands. He agrees with Foxy about how there shouldn't be a joke phase before explaining to everyone what the senior prank was. From this point he seems to take the "no joke phase" shtick a LOT more seriously than Foxy did. He gets upset with Squigs about the gut reads, specifically himself as slight scum "Why? Because I want to solve the game?" and myself as slight town "Explanations, please??
Like you are saying the EXACT opposite of what Im thinking...
And TrPrado just voting like that is clearly just making fun of it"
Also yes me making fun of it was absolutely the point. HOWEVER Flavius makes the claim
I voted for Foxy but never said I thought he was scum. Either way, Flavius starts scum reading me and that's been pretty much his guiding light all day.I think it was TrPrado who said Foxcastle was scum for wanting to solve the game.
Flavius claims Squigs thought Fox lied, and Squigs called Flav a liar to which Flavius very emphatically said "MISTAKES DO NOT EQUAL LIES." Flavius says he doesn't think Squigs giving his gut reads doesn't make sense so instead he'll "just be better" which I think was the point of him making his list. He gets pretty hung up on Squigs and Balki scum reading him and then
He then gets a lot of questions about it, says he had criteria, gets MORE questions because he didn't explain his criteria then either then saysSquigs-Town
Foxcastle-Town
Balki-Mafia
TrPardo-Mafia
Connor-Town
Percy-Mafia
darg-Town
Carl Tuckerson-Mafia
et-Mafia
Moscow-Mafia
Nepthys-Mafia
When I ask him why he made the list at all he said it was because of the Squigs method. Here's the thing. These two things were fundamentally different. Squigs was like at least half bullshitting. But this list seems more earnest and trying to be a lot more than what Squigs was actually wanting to do. I also don't get the criteria because in the first two hours of the game that would make really everyone Mafia no matter what. Flavius has unrealistically high standards here.My criteria were
1) Not engaged in the game(aka neph saying 'hi')
2) Commenting but not providing anything(aka, balki)
When Balki suggests that Flavius is obsessed with "Squigs's dude" Flavius agrees. The problem here is that Flavius is taking what Squigs said at face value. This "dude" could be fake to try and lend credence to the gut reads, or he may have made it up as a joke, or his method could be different from what he saw. So this isn't the best thing for Flavius to get hung up on. He thinks Balki isn't participating and calls him scum for calling me confident and attentive and town for voting for Foxy.
He comes back 20 hours later, votes for me and suggests he'll "probably end up changing!" He starts defending some of his play that he hasn't had the opportunity to defend yet. Me calling the list unhelpful, him saying Balki shouldn't just be asking questions. Mentions his continued obsession with "Squigs's dude"
He's making a big kerfuffle out of early posts from Balki and myself, and then uses a brief argument between me and Carl to justify saying Carl is a teammate of mine because I was accused of "coaching" Carl.
He says he doesn't believe Squigs who said that his vote would lose its purpose if he explained it then.
This was EXACTLY what I tried to do as mafia on the first game I played here
Says he wants answers from me but he only asked me questions when I asked what they were. Generally tried to avoid the Chippe VT debate but chimes in that he has to be town because he's pointing to lurker bozo. Actually his first mention of Chippe was defending Squigs by pointing out he was the one who started the Chippe wagon and therefore couldn't be settling for easy wagons.Also it wasnt my first game, Ive played live games before, I was just pointing out what I did as scum
Man, I was hoping I could come to his defense more but he still honestly doesn't look great.You two dont even realize though that Squig is doing it because its helpful...
What else are you going to do on Day 1??
You are purposefully ignoring the fact of Squig's dude that came up with this idea
Either both of you didnt read the game or you are lying
QUESTIONS:
Why did you take "Squigs's dude" at face value?
Why did you expect town to be able to meet your criteria two hours into the game?
Why have your reads on me and Balki been so static?
Have any reads changed for you?
What was your first game on the site and what was your alignment?
Why are you so defensive of Squigs's every action?
Why did you accuse me of lying about not wanting Squigs to explain about "his dude" who wasn't even mentioned at the time?
Why did you think me "forgetting" about Squigs's dude was convenient?
In the response "We are asking for gutreads right off the bat, you went directly against that idea, also I did provide criteria to my list, aka an explination" who is "we"?
