M1007 — "Mafia, She Wrote" Game Thread

[EspressoPatronum]

I am sorry for lynching Durga when it turns out we could have lynched Vashta, but the last thing I saw before changing my vote from Vashta to Durga was Durga's vote to tie it at 4-4 and xorxes refusing to break the tie, and there was less than a minute until EOD. The Flavius vote for Vashta came in just after mine, but then e.m.c. put it to where I would tie the vote again if I moved back to Vashta.

That's okay. It was pretty last minute and you had to make sure we avoided a tie.

In most cases, I'd rather a ML than a tie.

[teacon7]

What are the chances scum are playing my bias?

I think fairly high. A lot of ppl hopped on the Durga train without much resistance. If Durga isn't scum, then I think 2 scum are in the votes against her right now.

Just want to highlight this now that we know Durga was town.

At the time of that post, teacon, ND, Moscow, Percy, and Vash were on Durga.

I think we can all agree ND is probably town, but the others are viable scum options.

You gotta keep ND on that list. He could have hopped off to look better when she flipped.

[xorxes]

I feel the same way about your case on me: dishonest, stretching, etc. I do think I'm capable of misunderstanding your arguments, however, and have to admit the possibility that you're misunderstanding me as well.

Excellent. I think you are smart, hopefully you think I'm smart too. That means it's unlikely we're misunderstanding each other. Therefore one of us is lying.

Tomorrow should be xorxes vs teacon if I'm still alive.

It's practically impossible that this is TvT. He would not lie and manipulate like this as town, he would argue his case honestly.

xorx I wasn't going to scumread you until you attacked me all N1 and D2. the way you were going about it looks so manipulative that I'm having a hard time seeing it as misunderstanding town.

Perfect. Let's make it xorxes vs teacon which you should then be very happy with since worst case scenario the townie is lynched first but the other is exposed as scum.

In case I die first, the next lynch after teacon should be Flavius.

If you have read all our exchanges you can judge for yourself who is being honest and who is not, but one of us has to be lying.

I say: judge for yourselves whether one of us has to be lying.

You say that because you know most people won't bother reading the whole thing, much less try to disentangle it.

Trust me people one of us HAS to be lying. But of course do judge for yourself if you feel up to it.

[EspressoPatronum]

@xorxes and @teacon
Assuming tomorrow is indeed x v t, can each of you list the core of your arguments as succinctly as possible?

I'm a patient person who enjoys reading, but I'd be lying if I said I made it through the entirety of your debate without skimming sections. I imagine the same goes for most of the others.

[FlaviusAetius]

What are the chances scum are playing my bias?

I think fairly high. A lot of ppl hopped on the Durga train without much resistance. If Durga isn't scum, then I think 2 scum are in the votes against her right now.

Just want to highlight this now that we know Durga was town.

At the time of that post, teacon, ND, Moscow, Percy, and Vash were on Durga.

I think we can all agree ND is probably town, but the others are viable scum options.

Thank you by the way for being part of the reason why I switched to Vashta, following ND is probably a smart move since he's pretty much-confirmed town for everyone.

Also, @teacon, seems you only started coming after my neck when I started to scumread you. Interesting.

[FlaviusAetius]

I think fairly high. A lot of ppl hopped on the Durga train without much resistance. If Durga isn't scum, then I think 2 scum are in the votes against her right now.

Just want to highlight this now that we know Durga was town.

At the time of that post, teacon, ND, Moscow, Percy, and Vash were on Durga.

I think we can all agree ND is probably town, but the others are viable scum options.

You gotta keep ND on that list. He could have hopped off to look better when she flipped.

We are keeping ND off that list, he's the one who led us to Vashta, and now you want to turn us against him. Interesting. Trying to create more candidates? Boy was xorxes right.

[FlaviusAetius]

what the heck you guys

also scum

bye gg

Why do you think Durga thought you were scum?
Don't tell me it was because of you voting for her.
There were 4 others that followed you there. (one, of course, being a scum, as espresso suggested)

[xorxes]

Thanks man.

For all I'm arguing with xorx, I do think durga is the right one to lynch today.
When you get back, I'd appreciate your impressions of our conversation. Not just the merits of the case, but in how we're arguing. If we end up being TvT I think we'll both be pretty annoyed. Lend us some perspective on this.

How can we be TvT when I'm accusing you of lying and manipulation? I'm not accusing you of being wrong about my alignment, I'm accusing you of taking my words and twisting them to suit your purposes, which you would not do if you were town but just mistaken. You cannot believe that I'm town and accusing you of such things if you are town.

Are you saying it is impossible that both you and teacon are town?

Yes, it's pretty much impossible. He would not manipulate my arguments the way he has if he was town.

You are really really going up in my suspicions as his partner with all the distrust you place in every single thing I say as if they had second intentions, but I still think Flavius is more likely.

[xorxes]

Yes @teacon I could of swore vapor was a mafia, but he wasnt.

You will have a hard time convincing me of that, but maybe you won't need to as I will probably be dead by the time it becomes an issue.

[xorxes]

What's this whole teacon thinking vapour was cop and vapour claiming that he was roleblocked thing.

I'm assuming it was part of something they discussed in their QT, became moot when rivera flipped cop, but Vapor still run with it for some Vaporous reason, but I rather we see teacon's flip before getting into Vapor.

If we're both alive tomorrow, I'll consider a flav/vapor lynch. I still think there's a chance we're TvT (primarily because I even in with durga/xorx don't see scum bussing godfather as highly probable, just... probable), but we really need time to talk it through.

I'm fine with either a Flavius vs teacon or a xorxes vs teacon for tomorrow, if I'm alive. Pretty sure the other two will be.

[xorxes]

Again, this is just really fast skimming, but the arguments seem to a bit redundant on both of their sides. Xorxes doesn't seem like the type of guy to tunnel so hard tho, and Teacon is reminding me of a more talkative/eloquent Clae lol

Do you believe teacon is being honest when he distorts my arguments and invokes logical fallacies? i.e. is he really thinking that I'm making those absurd arguments that are so very easily discarded as logical failures? Does he truly believe I'm such an idiot?

[xorxes]

Vashta is my top scumread now. I think Durga has done a decent job in explaining her actions I also feel as if I am being manipulated into that vote and box. I'm not going to sit in it.

I'll join you. I think lynching Vashta says more about Durga than a Durga lynch says about Vash, given that she was going against him earlier. Teacon is still a bit sketchy, but his debate with xorxes left me thinking he's possibly town.

##VOTE Vashta

Really? You think he honestly believes I made those absurd logical fallacies? You think he really has such a low opinion of me?

[xorxes]

throwing tinfoil time! Is there any chance that both teacon and xorxes are faking this as scum? it's so...excessive, for lack of better wording.

Unlikely but possible. xorxes vs teacon tomorrow would sort that out though, guaranteed success if we're both scum.

[teacon7]

Also, @teacon, seems you only started coming after my neck when I started to scumread you. Interesting.

Flav, you started scumreading me the instant you got here.
Interesting.

[xorxes]

throwing tinfoil time! Is there any chance that both teacon and xorxes are faking this as scum? it's so...excessive, for lack of better wording.

I like the theory, if teacon flipped scum, xorxes might be unlynchable no matter how many NKs he survives.

I'm quite happy to be lynched right after Flavius if we lynch teacon and Flavius by some miracle flips town.

[xorxes]

I still do not see the certainty about damo. Yes, town doesn't copy reads from another game. However, scum doesn't copy reads from another game. Nobody copies reads from another game. I seriously doubt damo went back to the last game and paraphrased your read, it was likely just a coincidence.

Well, we can ask damo after the game.

I was certain the read was a copy. This was not obvious to everyone, but it was to me. That led to as much certainty as one can have about damo being scum.

If you think I'm making the whole thing up, there's not much more I can say.

Me as scum lynching damo there would be as weird as it can get, but if you think that's more plausible than me being certain his read was a copy of mine... that's up to you.

Here is the issue I have. You say town doesn't copy reads from another game, therefore damo was scum. I could just as easily have said scum doesn't copy reads from another game, therefore damo was town. There is no good reason to do it as either alignment, therefore it is NAI.

That's just not true. Town has no reason to be fake at all. If scum damo is at a loss to write a credible read he might think it's a good idea to copy a read from someone else that he found credible. It's obviously a bad idea, but nobody said it was a good idea.

[EspressoPatronum]

Vashta is my top scumread now. I think Durga has done a decent job in explaining her actions I also feel as if I am being manipulated into that vote and box. I'm not going to sit in it.

I'll join you. I think lynching Vashta says more about Durga than a Durga lynch says about Vash, given that she was going against him earlier. Teacon is still a bit sketchy, but his debate with xorxes left me thinking he's possibly town.

##VOTE Vashta

Really? You think he honestly believes I made those absurd logical fallacies? You think he really has such a low opinion of me?

No. I mentioned this on page 51, but I'll summarize here.

He fought so hard in defence that the fight itself made me question his scumminess over others. I asked others if this was common of his game but nobody responded.

In the top line of my quoted text, you can also see that I didn't want Durga to die over Vashta. My swap to Vashta was an attempt to make that happen. Don't read my vote for Vashta as an exoneration of teacon.

[xorxes]

Well, we can ask damo after the game.

I was certain the read was a copy. This was not obvious to everyone, but it was to me. That led to as much certainty as one can have about damo being scum.

If you think I'm making the whole thing up, there's not much more I can say.

Me as scum lynching damo there would be as weird as it can get, but if you think that's more plausible than me being certain his read was a copy of mine... that's up to you.

Here is the issue I have. You say town doesn't copy reads from another game, therefore damo was scum. I could just as easily have said scum doesn't copy reads from another game, therefore damo was town. There is no good reason to do it as either alignment, therefore it is NAI.

I'd say scum has more reason to copy reads. They're trying to fake the whole thing, so why not copy something real from a past game?

The funny thing is that the original read was fake as well (or at least created by one scum about another scum).

The really bad part of the plan was doing it in the very next game when I immediately recognized it was a copy, using a very particular wording that was highly unlikely to be coincidental. If he had said "bozo is logical as usual" instead of "bozo is his usual logical self" I would have never noticed.

[xorxes]

Here is the issue I have. You say town doesn't copy reads from another game, therefore damo was scum. I could just as easily have said scum doesn't copy reads from another game, therefore damo was town. There is no good reason to do it as either alignment, therefore it is NAI.

I'd say scum has more reason to copy reads. They're trying to fake the whole thing, so why not copy something real from a past game?

I think damo does not need to resort to that as scum.

Nobody needs to resort to that. What has that got to do with it?

[xorxes]

xorx is trying to get me lynched.
I'm trying to solve the game
xorx is making it sound like he's already solved the game.
who is that certain in their reads? Are any of you?

So because I'm certain of my read I must be wrong? I have been certain and right more than a few times before.